Forsake The Forskin Vs Tolerate the Turtle-neck

[UselessForeskinHiddenSurgeon]

When our DC arrives (approx 4months) should we be blessed with a boy (we don't know/want to know) , my partner (Jewish) would like to perform Brit milah on DS. This ceremony must occur 8 days after birth. My folks (Muslim) would also appreciate possible future grandson being foreskin free for similar but slightly different religious purposes. I am not particularly religious and nor is my partner (hence marrying out)

I was circumcised at the age of twelve and have clear (though not painful) memories of the event (carried out by Muslim surgeon at home along with my two younger brothers) Do remember being a little scared and i suppose it might have been a bit of an ordeal... Do have at least one amusing anecdote from it so i can't be that scarred surely?

Despite my own experience I don't like the idea at all. my first instinct is to put it off until later in the hope that everyone will just forget... i mean how often do you think about someone else's foreskin? There are some health benifits, among them; significantly reduced risk of HIV, HPV and also reduced incidence of genital warts among circumcised men. These are not enough to swing my opinion. Now my folks may be cool with leaving it until later since they themselves left it until i was a little older, but she is adamant we have it performed after 8 days (as per Brit Milah tradition)

AIBU to want to make a fuss about this? perhaps i should just cross my fingers and hope for a girl. We shall call her Queenie and she defo won't need to go for a chop thanks. I'd like a girl anyhow and it would make it easier for sure... since this is the case we're bound to wind up with a boy. Comments, Opinions, and possible strategies please!

Cheers people.

Thumbwitch, I resent being called bigot by somebody who doesn't even know me, those are not my"bigoted opinions" but facts.

Resent away, Zlaya, doesn't bother me in the slightest. You have taken no note of what the OP really is concerned about, all you have done is spout your dogma at the situation, which he really doesn't need as he probably gets it from his FIL. You have been no help to him at all.

Any kind of genital mutilation on babies is child abuse and should be illegal. I feel very strongly about this issue.

Am enjoying this thread very much (even though I have wondered whether it is a writer having a debate for an article or story. Not sure, don't really care)

But I do wish those that are pro-circumcision could actually explain why they are rather than it is just "our belief". Belief isn't totally blind, surely, so you must have come to the conclusion that there is a reason for it?

Useless as this is your first child you both havent made the hugely maturing step of becoming parents. When this happens you both should be making a huge step away from the writ of your parents - this is one of the big signs to your parents that you are grown ups and making your own decisions.

As parents you will be making huge numbers of decisions which your parents will disapprove of so you might as well get used to it now!

You are in the perfect position to say to your respective parents that given your child is of a shared heritage you will be leaving all religious decisions until he/she is of an age to make those decisions for him/herself.

Both of your parents will disapprove. They will also disapprove of the way you hold your child; feed your child; how, when and where your child sleeps etc etc etc.

What you have to learn is to nod and smile, nod and smile. Then, when they leave you shut the door behind them and carry on doing the right thing by your child.

Your job as parents is to protect your child from the people who will do him or her harm. Often the people who do most harm are the people who claim they are doing it for the good of the child. Dont fail your child.

Never mind, I still think this is not a genuine op, might very well be some sort of research, but that's just my take on things.
I bid you all good day, i wouldn't want to cause any more disruptions with my posts,( offend more people) so I will make myself disappear.

Oh, the irony zlaya, of you enjoying the right and freedom to express your opinion on this subject, while seeking to deprive the OP of his.

Vixaxn, I feel very strongly about children dying of HIV/aids in Africa, don't you too? There are multiple health benefits to circumcision, as recognised by the WHO. Circumcision is more efficient at preventing HIV transmission through sexual contact than the BCG vaccine is at preventing TB. The WHO states that the decision to circumcise an infant should be made by the parents in accordance to their culture, religious beliefs, personal preferences and information given by HCPs.

www.who.int/hiv/pub/malecircumcision/who_mc_local_anaesthesia.pdf

By contrast, FGM has no health benefits, poses significant risks and is internationally recognised as a violation of human rights.

www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Not exactly the same thing then.

While no one fully understands your relationship with your DW it doesn't sound like a healthy, mature relationship from what you have said so far and that is a real shame for your child as you won't be demonstrating a strong, adult partnership to him or her.

Your description of being fiercly loyal makes you sound like a dog rather than husband. You seem to be in awe of her and afraid of conflict with her. Your relationship doesn't sound evenly balanced. You sound terrified of losing her, but I wonder whether she feels the same of you. Her description of taking the guilt for this action infantilises you and emphasises the impression of inequality in your relationship.

Jokes about your wife castrating you probably offend you as they touch a raw nerve.

And judging you from an informed and rational position (in terms of circumcision rather than your relationship) seems entirely reasonable rather than childish. Fine, you find it hurtful, but you did ask and it probably hurts less that circumcision.

"Vixaxn, I feel very strongly about children dying of HIV/aids in Africa, don't you too? "

The African data is possibly unreliable, and is not applicable in our western societies. Men should be wearing condoms anyway, they are not magically safe because they have had a circumcision, they can still spread STIs.

102 babies die in the US from botched circumcisions every year. That's nearly one dead baby every three days. If you support circumcision, you are condoning this. If it were banned, those babies will live. One dead baby every three or four days. Think about that.

'I bid you all good day, i wouldn't want to cause any more disruptions with my posts,( offend more people) so I will make myself disappear.'

It's a shame you posted just to lecture rather than discuss zlaya, I can't talk for anyone else, but I don't find your posts disruptive or offensive.

If you believe the OP to be a troll just report them to MNHQ, but it won't make the subject or dilemma go away.

Vixaxn that is complete bollocks, there have been loads of studies in the US and neonatal death, or even loss of the penis or glans as a result of circumcision, has occured in a handful of cases since the second WW, during which time well over 50 million circumcisions took place. Nearly all serious complications happened following ritual circumcisions, as opposed to those (overwhelming majority) done in hospital. Would you care to give a source for your figure of 102 deaths a YEAR? Perhaps you are referring to the hilariously flawed Bollinger 'estimate' of 117 deaths a year? If so that 'estimate' has no credibility whatsoever, the maths are so bad it is a joke. circumcisionnews.blogspot.com/2010/05/fatally-flawed-bollingers-circumcision.html

And yes, the African studies are reliable, so much so in fact that two large scale studies comparing HIV transmission in circumcised and uncircumcised populations were stopped at the interim review stage because it was deemed unethical to continue them given it was found that transmission risk was halved in the circumcised groups. The uncircumcised groups were offered adult circumcision instead.

Of course people should wear condoms, they should also eat their 5 a day and wash their hands every time they sneeze, but people do stupid things. The WHO says it is proven beyond doubt that circ reduces the HIV transmission rate. And circumcision also protects against various other diseases (non STI) including UTIs in infants (which can cause meningitis).

I came on this thread to give support to the OP, and now I am getting sucked into this ridiculous debate which I'd promised myself I would not do . Circumcise, don't circumcise, I don't really give a shit. We all do (I hope) what we think is best for our children. One in three mothers, worldwide, chooses circumcision. I don't believe that makes her a child abuser, far from it, given the known health benefits. You think differently - fair enough, you are entitled to your views, however extreme they are.

OP, I totally disagree with what you're planning to do to your child but I like the fact you're still here discussing it and retaining a sense of humour (if you do part with the family jewels I'm sure me and breatheslowly can have one each or something).

I just don't get that you feel entitled to interfere in your DS's sex life like this, if the research for the HIV protection is valid, he would still benefit from being circumcised once he is old enough to make the decision himself, it's certainly not an argument for harming a baby.

If you're desperate to make your parents happy perhaps giving up the whisky would be a good first step, one to think about before sacrificing a bit of your DS's penis for them?

"It crossed my mind as well that the OP was on the wind up, but I came to the conclusion that if he was, he would have come up with something a tad more contentious than the fact that he has an overwhelming love for his wife!"

"There is nothing here to debate, Muslims and Jews circumcise their boys, end of."

Zlaya - just like that - eh?

How about we have a dialogue?

I don't agree with messing with children's private parts.

I think it's wrong.

Your turn....

Ummm...

DS was circumcised for religious reasons. It wasn't at 8 days - very few boys are, as it can't be done if they've got even a touch of jaundice - so it was around the 12 day mark. I didn't want to do it, but wouldn't have not done it, IYSWIM.

The actual circumcision was done by a 'mohel', who in our case was also a) an experienced GP and b) the guy who has trained all the other 'mohels' in our area for the last 20 years, so pretty experienced.

The whole thing was over in seconds (bar the prayers, of course!), DS cried for about 10 seconds, if that and was happy to be taken off for a feed straight away. He slept fine after, recovered really fast, and, to be honest, was far more bothered by his 'belly button cord stub' which was still attached and getting uncomfortable, than by his willy. It healed really quickly and cleanly, and the mohel came by to check him every couple of days.

Do I regret it? Not at all. Does he remember it? Not in the slightest. Would I do it again? Yes, but with the same deep breath and sense of slight uncomfortableness.

I do hope that helps, OP :)

Fillybuster - but why did you have it done?

Can you give a reason?

Yes, I'd be really interested what the religious reasons for circumcision actually are? Genuine question, I do not have a clue.
Fillybuster, can you give the Jewish perspective? And why would you do it again if the situation arose?
Any Muslims out there who know the theology behind it all?

Obviously, in the general context of paediatric surgery it is a tiny procedure; it just seems so utterly unnecessary to interfere with newborn perfection... Yes, I am a sop... and have had some .

And: do we have some other MNers in a Jewish/Muslim marriage?? Cross-cultural marriages like that cannot be terribly common, are thay?
My (non-practicing) protestant brother is married to a (non-practicing) catholic woman and even that ridiculously caused all sorts of problems with the respective families...

I might just start another thread...

ITNK - I know you were joking but it's pretty obvious that Zlaya is not the OP's wife, as he/she is very obviously a devout Jew who has no issue at all with circumcision, not something the OP has said about his DW.

I know a few Jewish/Catholic marriages - that's quite a common cross-cultural mix - I don't suppose that it's any better or worse than a Jewish/Muslim mix?

Maybe have quite a lot more before starting that one PD

You might be lucky and not remember it all in the morning

That is, until going into 'Threads I'm on' mwahahaha

gnomedeplume because marrying a Jew instead of someone chosen for me was not a clear enough sign that i'm making my own decisions?

animation I do love my wife! I do, I do! actually have to pinch myself... and were having a baby! this is where i lose the words and quietly gush to myslef.

oh yeah you asked about:

religious reasoning? the term itself feels like an oxymoron, since when has religion needed reason? i guess for muslims (and i can only speak to the south asian persuasion) it's all about following the example set by Mohammed. It's also deemed a right of passage, you know the whole and now thou art becometh a MAN. put away childish things and try to keep you thing in your pants. For Jews it is a commandment from god that must be followed and not delayed unless the childs safety is in jeopardy. oh and

pelvicfloor hmmm i dunno... i was hoping they'd stay together as a pair.... they've shared the same home all their lives... maybe if you promised to reunite them now and then....

Goodnight everyone.

oh yeah, we know of one other couple. like us but the other way around and they are now in their 50's i think.

breathslowly thanks for the in-depth analysis of my marriage. being able to construct such a thing based on a few posts on a forum thread is a skill indeed. are you sure your not just mad at me for going ahead with something you strongly disagree with? it's okay if you do, i'm a little mad at myself but who cares?! were having a baby wooooooooooo!

disagree that talking or writing regarding DW in the way i do constitutes being in awe of her (though i am a little). and as for her feelings toward me, well i'm happy to keep those to myself.

I'm off to do awful things to her now teehee!

Rev084 ( Sun 07-Aug-11 10:31 ) wrote

... "had him circumcised at approx 2wks due to cultural not religious reasons" ....

would you care to expand on the cultural reasons for this being done, please ?

"I do think its more hygenic, as does my DP being circumcised himself"

I'm over 50 and have never had any health problems related to not being circumcised.
Hygiene is something easily taught to biys like brushing their teeth and washing their hair, so I challenge it being 'more hygenic'. Indeed, as protection against sand/dirt reaching the more sensitive glans, having a foreskin would seem a positive advantage!

"British think its mutilation"
Agreed, very strongly. Medical reasons seem fine. Anything else I question!