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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To ask dd's friend to say please and thank you whilst on a play date?

124 replies

Sleepglorioussleep · 03/08/2011 12:32

Didn't really think about it, dd had friend round, both seven, and friend asked for drink (bit of a tone in the way she asked). As a reflex really I said, "say please" and she informed me that she didn't have to say please. I, bit less reflex this time, said that we do in our house. Mother rang me the next day to say that what I'd said was unacceptable. I promise faithfully that both comments to her dd were made in a pleasant tone! Aibu?

OP posts:

hester · 03/08/2011 14:48

You can't say 'sorry' either?

But I AM middle class - lower - dragging myself up by my bootstraps. Is that so very wrong? Is my affectation a crime?

Blimey, you'll be telling me they're napkins not serviettes next. And I never do remember whether or not it's ok to call it a toilet...

hester · 03/08/2011 14:52

I'm loving animula's response - that will give her something to chew on

The example of asking small children to say sorry is surely different. Part of me agrees that we waste a lot of energy trying, for example, to persuade toddlers to share. Toddlers don't learn to share, do they? Not until they got the cognitive skills to learn about social relationships, giving and taking, benefits of generosity etc. Until then they are simply doing what they're told, without understanding the meaning behind it.

But is that so wrong? I think often we make a fuss of please, thank you, sharing and taking turns at playgroups because we're signalling to other mothers that we know the rules and are abiding by them, therefore making a safe space for everyone. It's pack animal behaviour. And the children, in turn, get used to the words and the behaviours from a very early age, and develop understanding of them later.

By 7 you would surely expect a child to have the cognitive functioning to work out why please and thank you are a good idea. If this child still hasn't worked it out she needs it taught in the old fashioned way.

Spuddybean · 03/08/2011 14:54

i am nouveau riche. so i am as affected as they come - until i've had a few ribenas! I even say Lounge!

I think the rule is posh people say it as it is, bluntly (do need to pussy foot around they have an empire to run dontchaknow) and middle class/working class people presume becasue they are posh they would never dream of being so crass. So then have made up words to hide the embarassment of humanity. Which then posh people find nauseating and hilarious in the same measure at our pathetic attempt to be like them.

All part of the rich legacy of the feudal system!

animula · 03/08/2011 14:55

I think fastweb has it, with regard to the 'phone call. Which is ironic, since it was, in effect, "a move of domination" in that other-mother was seeking to impose her life-philosophy of OP. Tee hee - the irony. Or maybe was just trying to explain.

I'm not sure you can iron out power, or perhaps more precisely, inequality, from the parent-child relation. The relation is pedagogic, surely? We're older and often more experienced - we are often desperately running against the clock trying to impart everything our offspring need to know in order to survive and thrive without us. Tick tock. There's the box. Please remember I loved you.

Hester - I am so sorry I mentioned LMC-ness. I know mn loves a good class thread. I wish I could delete that now!

robingood19 · 03/08/2011 14:56

MANNERS are taught at varyling levels of politeness. I would not wish to be a manners junkie. But they are useful with strangers

AliGrylls · 03/08/2011 14:56

I guess in non-coercive parenting one would be expected to tolerate toddler tantrums; all forms of bad behaviour in children and if I am being really extreme they should not be coerced into going to school.

To me the point is that although they may not realise the full meaning of "thank you" and "please" at a young age it will take them less time to get there than a child who is never taught to say please and thank you. Children won't learn anything unless you make them because naturally children want to push boundaries and be naughty. The relationship is not equal as some may believe it to be.

I guess I have made my view on non-coercive parenting clear - I think it is a load of bollocks.

fastweb · 03/08/2011 14:59

animula

At your proposed response.

robingood19 · 03/08/2011 14:59

my sisters young son, much younger than me, said sorry out of the blue,

I assumed he was just saying sorry for taking up space close to me. Mummy was very mannered

WITH YOUNG KIDS there are two sets of manners one for the parents and another for the mates. Tell me if I am wrong

PerryCombover · 03/08/2011 15:03

your sister's son is younger than you?

haste thee to the daily mail

fastweb · 03/08/2011 15:03

and if I am being really extreme they should not be coerced into going to school

Radical unschooling.

robingood19 · 03/08/2011 15:05

I would not tell another persons child to say please and thank you. (Unless I was their guardian) Am I the only one?

scurryfunge · 03/08/2011 15:08

I wouldn't demand it necessarily but I would point out that it is polite to acknowledge something someone has done for you.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/08/2011 15:12

YANBU... Still remind my own DS to say thank you on an embarrassingly regular basis. Pleasantly remind my cubs and any visiting children the same thing. Don't care if parents are listening. Don't care if they don't have to say please or thank you at home. Bad manners, to quote Supernanny, are 'unassetable' (sic)

robingood19 · 03/08/2011 15:13

It will soon get into one of those endless debates about posh and middle class Can you face it?

Thats why people usually marry into their own class. They cant face the endless arguments about lunch, dinner, tiffin, toilet, lavatory, lady, female , woman or crumpet.

fastweb · 03/08/2011 15:14

unassetable

Being without an asset ?

animula · 03/08/2011 15:15

No robin, you're not the only one. I think I'm like scurryfunge. If I felt a child was bossing me/being rude I'd respond with something but - being absolutely honest here - I'm often too ditzy to even notice. let alone comment.

I also think that one of the interesting things that children learn, very young, is to modulate their behaviour according to situation/environment/context. I have a (slightly oddball) belief that it's hardwired in, after centuries of evolution. Very few don't have that skill - though some don't, and it is so remarkable when we come across its absence that it does suggest that behaviour flexibility is an evolutionary trait.

So learning that some people behave differently is an OK thing for children to learn.

bigmouthstrikesagain · 03/08/2011 15:17

I had a similar-ish experience when a boy was playing at our house yesterday. He is 6 and I asked him if he would like a drink, he said 'no' I was not going to respond to that as he barely says a word to me as it is so my expectations are low. But dd1 (5) told him 'you have to say no thank you' and lo and behold the next time I asked him if he wanted anything he replied 'no [massive pause] thank - you' I was highly amused.

I doubt he would have moaned to his mum about that - peer pressure is the solution! I do insist on basic manners and saying sorry - I see it as part learning the rules of basic communication and I model good manners as well as using them - I rerally do not see it as coercion any more than making them wash their hands after using the loo. Children have to learn to do all sorts of things before they truly understand why.

In the OP's position - I probably would not have asked the visitor to say please but I know now that my children do question others if they do not so I don't have too. Which gets me off the hook!

CogitoErgoSometimes · 03/08/2011 15:17

Worst manners I ever heard were from a child at DS's 8th birthday party. We'd had the food and the people running the party were collecting up the rubbish etc. Cub-leader mode took over & I asked the children to pass their rubbish down the table and make things a bit easier for the helpers..... "Why should we?" said one spoilt brat lovely child "They're getting paid, aren't they?"

Spuddybean · 03/08/2011 15:21

cogito haha! i had one at the university the other day i was carrying an armful of boxes and asked a student to open the door for me please, he looked at me with disgust and said 'what! like i'm your slave!' then flounced off leaving me to struggle.

sorry about mentioning class - i didn't realise it was a no no.

animula · 03/08/2011 15:22

Spuddy - it's not a no no - and I did it too. It is waaay popular on mn.

scurryfunge · 03/08/2011 15:23

Cogito . That is dreadful.

fastweb · 03/08/2011 15:27

Am I the only one?

No, I don't.

You can imply the essence of the function of please and thank you with tone or a "polite" modal verb in Italian, and as long as the request is not of the snotty nosed "do as I command !!" variety I don't make my son cringe by imposing my British love of please and thank you on all his friends.

The few snot nosed ones just got a nicely toned, but in no way saccharine, "I don't like the way you ordered me to do something for you" and a complete lack of movement towards the object of their desire.

Which got me around the non-coercion issue. Yet still allowed me to be clear about my expectations as to how I am treated by people large, or small.

Cleverything · 03/08/2011 15:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

emmanumber3 · 03/08/2011 15:35

If a child is in my house then I would expect them to be saying please & thank you in the same way I'd expect of my own children. It would never have crossed my mind that a parent would object to that .

I can think of quite a few instances with various children where my response to "can I have a drink/biscuit/ice cream?" etc. has been "yes, when you say please". This includes DSs' schoolfriends, god-daughter, friends' children etc. I'm afraid if someone rang me to complain about something so basic then their child would no longer be welcome in my home. Although, I probably would have started to feel that way when the "I don't have to say please" was uttered!

animula · 03/08/2011 15:35

I like that, fastweb.

Have to say, though, I find that nearly all the children I've met through mine are appreciative and pleasant guests.

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