AIBU about SIL, DH and Hanukkah????

[Iamkenny]

DH is a liberal Jew (observant on something not on others). I was raised in a Buddhist household.

This year Hanukkah falls during Christmas (Dec 20th-28th) and we try to spend Christmas time with my family and Rosh Hashanah, Pesach and Purim with his (we live closer to my family so spend more time with mine on a month to month basis)

Me and DH decided when we got married that our children would be raised culturally Jewish e.g. festivals, bat/bar mitzvah and circumcisions for our sons. But could decide on the religiously part themselves (which DH is lax on anyway)

This Christmas our DD will be 4, DS 2 and we will have 2 month old twins DD2 and DS2. We will be spending the time staying with my parents along with my sister and her family and my brother and his family.

DD is just beginning to understand and relishes all the food and the prays and the menorah

We have spent the time with my parents and sister and her family before and they throw themselves in, especially my dad, BIL and nephew who love the food. But we have never spent the time with my Brother, SIL and my niece.

My family have always known that they are welcome to buy our children and us presents for Christmas day and we buy my family presents for Christmas day. But they know that our children wont receive any other presents from DH family and that we give 8 small presents (one each day) to them

It is my DH culture that he wishes to share with his children, ( and I throw myself in as well) he relishes doing the prays and menorah with the people he loves.

I was on the phone to my SIL a few days ago and basically she said a few things that accumulated in saying that she wasn't comfortable with having her 12yr old daughter around the Hanukkah celebrations and that she herself doesn't what to be around it at all, including the food which is going to be alongside normal 'christmassy' food

I have always had a complex relationship with my SIL but we get on perfectly fine, and it's nothing obvious and can spend holidays with each other as long as we have somewhere to go to be away from each other. Also she is not religious (raised CofE but no religion and my niece has been bought up with no religion)

I was shocked and couldn't say anything. DH is very upset and now for the first time feels uncomfortable around my family, feeling that they don't accept him and therefore our children (which apart from my SIL not true)

I want to spend the time with my family, DH wants to celebrate Hanukkah with DC and we both want my family to be aware of what is a very core part of my DC and DH life

I don't know what to do????

AIBU to expect her not to care so much? And just get on with it? Especially as it seems to have come out of nowhere (she came to wedding in the temple etc.)

I think your Christmas/Hanukkah plans sound lovely. Can I come and bring my dc, I think they'd love it?

I think Jewish by name goes down the women's line. ie if your great-great-great-great (etc) grandmother was Jewish and no one else, but if it came down just the women, then you're counted as Jewish. If your Dad was Jewish and mother not, then you're not Jewish.
But I'd maintain you can choose to bring your children up as Jews if you have no blood connection at all. Don't see any issue with that.

OP I agree with others that sadly your parents will need to get involved. It is there house, and their family, so they too need to be part of bringing peace this event and making their stance clear for everyone. It seems your DH needs it made clear to him that your family stands behind you and your SIL needs reassurance that a Christmas celebration can be just as fun with latkes, gelt, and a menorah.

AitchGee Actually, Noahide children (which are what these children would be seen as through the more Orthodox perspective) can celebrate Channukah too, as well as most other holidays, with a few changes (the blessing over the Channukah candles is different for a Noahide than it is for a Jew, for example, but none of the OP's children are really old enough to be taught that yet so following their father's example is fine as long they know they are not obligated to do so, which would most likely happening if their father comes from a Liberal Judaism point of view).

And Noahide sons who are known to be descended from Abraham are still circumcised as the covenant was given to Abraham and his descendent (Ishmael was circ'ed, as were Abraham's sons through Keturah).

So actually there is no confusion of their participation in Channukah or circumcision under Torah Law. Judaism is not an all-or-nothing system which you are portraying it as - even from a very Orthodox point of view, just because someone does not do one mitzvah, such as marrying out which you are keen to point out, it does not mean that nothing is gained from doing others. Even one mitzvah brings good, especially one done with joy. So there is no confusion or need to bring strife into this conversation.

I´m confused why people think that OPs parents need to speak up tbh.

I would have thought the fact that they are hosting as they are shows that they are supportive.

Aitchgee and marriedinwhite, liberal and reform judaism specifically allows a child to be considered Jewish if either parent is Jewish. Furthermore there are branches of judaism that consider religion to be passed through paternal rather than maternal line.

So since the ops dh is from a liberal Jewish community, the community would consider her child as Jewish even if an orthodox community wouldn't.

The Hanukah part of the celebrations need only take a short while, light Menorah, say a blessing and sing first verse of Moautzsur (imaginative spelling there). Then eat yummy food along with Xmas food. It doesn't sound too terrible.

Hanukah is celebrated every night when darkness falls so, in the Uk, it would be around 4 or 5 pm. You could time your arrival/departure around this and celebrate at home if needs be.

DH and I are Jewish (Masorti Jews as it happens) and our children have never celebrated Xmas traditionally. They used to yearn after it but now find all the hype on TV and in shops boring and are, I think, slightly grateful that we don't have to do all that.

I feel I should get a few things straight.

Notjust... thank you.

marriedinwhite as I said before I wont be converting (but that has nothing to do with this OP), as I don't believe in God. But my children are jewish with their farther. As for DH being more observant - that is just what his family has always done as so will be what our DC will do.

In relation to the rest of my family, my DH knows deep down that none of my family share this view - he has just been wounded, which is why he feels he should withdraw DC etc

Issue with my brother is about him defending what SIL said - I'm sure he doesn't hold the same view. He is just being very him like.

I get what people mean about her feelings being in my parents and having so many people there - but to hide that behind anti-semitic comments??

I have no idea about her view on organised religion, but she has no problem from saying a buddhist grace anytime before. And she has never mentioned having an issue with DH religion before - she came to our wedding and DS bris (less face it far more important than one little Hanukkah)

I think I have explained to them what will happen, but will talk to my parents about making it clear to my neice about Presents etc.
SIL to my knowledge is aware that the jewish food will be around during the 8 days but come christmas day there will be a turkey and trimmings etc. and they are aware that they are under no obligation to even be around during prays etc (even though my parents like to be involved) But I will attempted to reitterate it to her and make it clear that the 5 of them (to some extent me as well) will be doing certain things. And that Christmas and Hanukkah celebrations will sit side by side (menorah will be in same room as christmas tree)

Thank you

Your SIL has a massive cheek. If she was uncomfotable joining in with the religious aspect/prayers fair enough as she doesn't believe it. But she is complaining about the food?! Petty, mean and very intolerant.

I don't understand why your DH is upset with the rest of the family though.

What has she said, other than she doesn't want to be around religious celebrations that is so offensive? I can see how this can be upsetting but I don't get why she is suddenly being called rabidly anti-semitic.

Hope you get it sorted OP, I think the crix is definitely getting your parents to take a stand on your behalf.

This thread has made me nostalgic for The OC - anyone else remember Chrismukkah? :)

crux, damn it. I don't know what a crix is.

Basically she said that she wasn't comfortable having DD around Hanukkah celebration and that she herself didn't want to be around it. I asked her exactly what she meant, thinking she was referring to prays and stuff but she confirmed she meant it all (including food ? which is just ridiculous)

I think people are calling her anti-Semitic (which I don't think she is) because it is a very prickly subject ? as all types of racism however small should be.

However she is being unreasonable.

DH just feels wounded (as do I)

it would take more to convince me that SIL is anti-semitic than her saying she does not feel comfortable with Hannukah traditions being mixed in with Christmas ones.

Maybe she just likes a traditional Christmas for herself and her dd.

tbh there is a big religious mix going on and since you are all not particularly religious, I cannot see the point in falling out over it. Really, can you? I mean you are Buddhist but relaxed about your dc growing up vaguely Jewish. Dh is Jewish but not very intense about how he lives out his Judaism, mother is a lapsed Catholic, father is a Buddhist and SIL is CoE but not religious and her own dd is growing up with no religion.

I think have Christmas at your parents, do the Hannukah celebrationsat your house and invite whoever from the family is coming or go out and celebrate elsewhere? if you are all staying with the grandparents over Christmas. I think since none of you sounds very religious, just make it a nice family thing and do your religious observations separately

My parents are happy for my children to celebrate Hanukkah in THEIR house, they welcome a mixture of faiths. She does not - that is my problem.

I don't see that this is a problem at all for either you, or your dh, or your parents - it's hers but, on the basis of what you've said, YABU to conclude that she is anti-semitic.

Mountains and molehills come to mind; whatever event you're celebrating with your parents in their home, their wishes should prevail.

I am not saying she is anti-semitic at all (because if she was she wouldn't have accepted my DH or DC or come to our wedding etc) I do not believe that she is anti-semitic at all.

It became my problem when my DH got insulted and she (and my brother) have not apologised let alone understand why it upset him.

ZZZenAgain DC are being raised Jewish - not vaguely anything. If you are referring to their choice on the God part then yes (but that comes from me not my DH) And no DH isn't intense (?) but there are aspects that are important things for him (though what you mean really I have no idea - what do you mean by intense??)

We are staying with my parents over the time and we will be observing in the main areas (we do so seperatly) but just as my DH gets christmas presents and we all sit down on Christmas day for food, they are welcome to be as involved as they like. The problem is them being 'around' it. There will be food, Menorah will be lit and not hidden away and my daughter will play with a dreidel (which my other Nephew and neice discovered last year was fun). And my hushand will pray with our DC - not hidden away.

I'm going to speak to SIL and brother tonight - so I'll see how it goes.

you said yourself in your OP your dh is lax on religious issues. You say he is not observant and they are free to believe or not believe in God. To me I would say that is nota particularly religious upbringing which was the point I made. None of you are particularly religious so why cause so much friction in the family over something you don't even believe in? - for everyone involved.

The Hannukah-Christmas mix is your own family thing which your parents seem happy with but I don't see that she absolutely has to want to adopt it too. Why is how your family like to celebrate this time round more important than how she wants to?

I think actually YABU and it seems to me taht you and your dh are just wanting to make a point, not caring really how other people's Christmas is for them. Why isn't it a compromise that suits everyone. Surely it is possible if none are you are really religious anyway?

"I want to spend the time with my family, DH wants to celebrate Hanukkah with DC and we both want my family to be aware of what is a very core part of my DC and DH life

...

AIBU to expect her not to care so much? And just get on with it?"

seems to me the family is a bit bigger than just you and dh though and what SIL and brother want for themselves and their family should also come into it if it is an extended family get-together. Shoot me for it but I don't see why it is all about you and dh. You want an apology and understanding but you lack understanding yourself when it comes to her. Works both ways surely

Have to agree with ZZZen, it does sound like its all about you and what you want, and you haven't thought about what anyone else might want. and painting it like she must be a terrible person with awful ideas is really quite unfair.
Personally if a family member of mine wanted to change everyone elses Christmas to suit them I would be accomodating in the extreme, but I would expect to be consulted and not just informed that my Christmas was now also a religious holiday with rituals and ceremonies and that I was expected to be delighted about even if I didn't know what they were!

Our decision to allow our DC to make their own mind up on God is based on me not wanting to give my children that particular belief until they are old enough to decided for themself.
From that regard it is not religious but he is making sure the grow up knowing the stories and teachings (the ones he agrees with) and he does with his family and DC go to temple when we are in london. For example he doesn't keep Kosher except no pork and as for kosher meat only when we are with his family.

She does not have to adopt it at all - just understand that during the time we will also be observing hanukkah, I would never wish her to partake in something she doesn't want to. But not being around it is not possible and if I'm honest stupid.

We have all reached a compromise - SIL does not want to go along with it. A compromise that keeps all the Christmassy things that I and my two siblings where brought up with - that has not been changed at all and I myself would never want to sacrafice.

For referrence if we ever do that time at our home with members of my family there would be a tree and a big meal on Christmas day. (which is basically the only christmassy things my family have ever done)

ZZZen has said what I was thinking.

Even if you are "observing seperately", if it is in the "main areas", then surely it involves everyone?

Who is the "all" who have reached a compromise, because it doesn't sound as if it included your SIL.

not at all - my parents kitchen, dinning, living room is open planned. The menorah will be in the window (where it has to be) next to the Christmas tree (that last year my DD loved helping my mam decorate)
It will take half an hour each day for us to be there and pray and light the candles. That is the only 'religious' part to the time.
My DD and DS will play with a dreidel but i'm sure they will also play with animals and run around. I'll be cooking 'jewish' food as snacks and food (that in no way is very religious and unless you oppose oil can't have a problem with) but it will not be cooked on Christmas day, Christmas eve or Boxing day. Those days are about how I was raised and we would never change them at all, especially as it is a big family christmas.

Well, it sounds as though SIL will have the Christmas that she wants/is used to.

But for those not wanting to be involved in the prayers-where do they go?

This thread is turning into a demand that the OP justify her family's Jewishness. OP, you are being very patient; I am feeling less patient so will leave the thread.

Wait for me hester