For being furious at DH telling DSD that my degree isn't a real degree?

[TooFarGone]

So DH is sat down with his DD taking about careers etc. He says to her "these days, you need a job that pays at least £20k a year but at the same time, you don't want to be stressing yourself out with difficult degrees and stuff. You want to enjoy your time at uni. That's why I think nursing would be ideal for you! you get to go to uni, you don't have to do a difficult degree and you get a well paid job at the end of it!".

So DSD says "But isn't a degree in nursing going to be just as difficult?" and he replied "no course not, they call it a degree but its not like a real degree".

I'm furious as I worked bloody hard to get my degree and he knows this. It isn't an "easy option" at all. I had it out with him and he apologised for upsetting me but still maintains that nursing is an easy alternative to doing a "real" degree.

MillyR, patients don't die because people "won't" get them a glass of water. Do you really think we nurses wander into work every day and think you know what, I'm going to be an evil cow today and surrepetitiously try to murder everyone in my path? I could give you a multitude of reasons why SICK people die (that was a clue by the way), but I really can't be arsed as I'm sure it won't sink in. Every time nursing is mentioned on an MN thread it degenerates into name calling and patronising by people with no experience or knowledge of the job or the realities of modern nursing. Not the job it was 30 years ago, but what it entails now. You only have to look at the childbirth threads where people rant on about "the nurses"-I don't deliver babies and have no desire to and you would think someone who had a baby would know they were cared for by a midwife, not a nurse.

Actually, patients do die without water. I'm not Dr Gregory House, but I am sure he'd agree with that one...

I'm with Wamster actually. I think the arguing about the glass of water is just distracting from the fact that nurses don't - or didn't - require a degree to do their jobs effectively. It's a vocation, it's severely underpaid and under-resourced, I don't think anybody would argue that. It doesn't require an academic degree.

I think that some of the posters on this thread have lost sight of what the thread was about. It's not about undervaluing nurses, the OP wasn't about that. There is no 'shame' in having a vocational career and there's something very wrong with society if we're just getting people in who don't see it as a career, more like a 'job' that pays the bills.

And yes, of course it's all relative - if maths isn't your 'thing' you're going to find a maths-based qualification difficult. All the more reason to get a qualification and subsequent career that suits your talents otherwise you're going to find it challenging and possibly unsatisfying.

I really wish people wouldn't find insults where there are none intended.

Alright, lets do this point by point.

1. It's their jobs as nurses to anticipate these (very) basic needs

Right, so by this basis they can anticipate that oxygen is necessary, and know beforehand when someone is going to suffer from a lack of it so they can have the canisters and masks at the ready? I WILL TELL YOU THIS ONE MORE TIME. THEY ARE NOT PSYCHIC.

1. They really should instruct a nursing assistant to do it! And make sure it is done.

Oh marvellous! So now, not only do nurses NOT need degrees for what they do, they have to be responsible for everyone elses jobs as well as their own?! For goodness sake.

1. There was no crises on the ward.

How do you know? And even if there weren't, as I've already stated they were probably in the process of hand-over. If the nurses that are leaving don't fill in the nurses that are coming on, mistakes get made and people die. Simple enough. You obviously missed that bit.

1. Iwas not in A and E where your points would be valid.

I never said you were, I was saying that they have a triage system, and nurses have to work in EXACTLY the same way. Worst things first, piddly little problems later. Woops, something else has gone wrong, terribly sorry but your piddly problem has been pushed right back down to the bottom of the pile.

I'm not saying it's fair, I'm saying that's how the system works. And at least three other people on this board seem to see that you're being irrational. They may not even agree with me, but they have raised the same points with you as I have, and their posts have all but been ignored. One of them even tried a blatant attempt at sarcasm, and you took it to mean she's pissing about on Mumsnet whilst adjusting someone's ventilator!

If that's not making yourself look like an idiot, I don;t know what is.

YES, they do have to be responsible. I'm not arguing with you anymore, if you can't see that nurses have to anticipate patients needs. you are an idiot

It is their effing job to do the basics for sick people who are not thinking straight.

And for the record, I think that nursing is one of the hardest jobs you can ever imagine, and it certainly doesn't need people belittling it every single day. It's one of the noblest professions around and yet people still believe that it's just women pandering about drinking coffee and adjusting pillows.

4 points made. None replied to. You can't just keep saying "They need to anticipate patient needs".

Who has said that, MummyTigger? The only people belittling the profession that I can see is our government. Nobody on this thread has said that nursing isn't difficult, I couldn't do it for sure.

I hear people every day belittling the profession. Even the OP's DP has belittled the profession by saying that it isn't a "real" degree. My mother struggled to put herself through University for that degree, and can't stand it when people try and piss all over her efforts. It's just saddening.

Wamster just out of interest, have you read any of the blog that MummyTigger linked to further up the thread? I think it would answer your questions, and perhaps you would understand a bit more about the way in which nurses are forced to work in the modern nhs.

It's always something I'm going to feel strongly about - most people seem to think nursing is easy or simple when actually hundreds of people end up relying on you on a daily basis, either directly or indirectly. The amount of times my mother has come home and just cried is insurmountable. It's crushed her on more than one occasion because she's been blamed by abusive members of the public for "not doing her job", when actually all she was doing was her best. It's the least rewarding profession around. But often the most rewarding too.

Read the post Wanster, nowhere does it say lack of water doesn't kill people. You could have answered it in a rational fashion, but decided to patronise some more and imply that I don't know basic facts about my profession. TBH I find it a bit of a non-point anyway, as someone else pointed out all the wards I have worked on give water out at regular intervals, plus other drinks. If you have a complaint about your care, bring it up with the ward in question rather than arguing about it with strangers on the internet. I can justify my job until I'm blue in the face, but after seven years of it I am past caring. I do my job very well, I know how difficult it is, and it's enough for me that the majority of people who have been genuinely ill appreciate that too. People in this country are going to get a huge wake up call when the NHS cuts really start to bite and our numbers, plus that of doctors start to dwindle.

I usually find that those who constantly need to belittle nurses are male ,underachievers and misogynist.
God forbid that nurses are kind and clever- sometimes they are even ----men

I think the 'degree' scene has changed so much over the years that maybe some people are just not up to date with it.
As Bruffin said above I don't think nursing required a degree in the 'old days' so maybe he is just up to date with what goes on now.
I do think there are different standards of degree however and I do think what university you get a degree from has its significance. I also think its a shame how pretty much everyone is expected to have a degree nowdays.
20k won't get anyone very far either especially when your kids are grown up!

Yes, Nursing is extremely demanding. Several of my family members have been nurses and they deserve a lot more than they get.

"I think that some of the posters on this thread have lost sight of what the thread was about. It's not about undervaluing nurses, the OP wasn't about that."

"she could do so much more"

"he's doing this kid down"

etc etc etc

Iamabadger, patients have died because nobody would get them a glass of water. Cases of this have been investigated by the police and hospital trusts have had to investigate them, apologise etc.

I am not making any kind of claim as to exactly at what level the fault lies, and I have no knowledge of how hospitals are run. But having been a patient, and a family member of other patients (as have most other people), I do think it is fair enough that we get to comment on what kind of experiences we have had in hospitals because while it is not our 'job' to turn up at the hospital, we are often there for reasons of life and death, which are just as important as somebody else's job.

I suspect the reason people complain a lot about the NHS on MN is because in real life, many people feel quite powerless and silenced in their dealings with the NHS, at least at hospital level. It seems to me that this has an impact on both the patients and the nurses, because both groups end up on the receiving end of the other's stress at the problems with NHS care.

MummyTigger... I think you're getting upset over 'terms' here. For 'real', read 'academic' or 'pure' or 'core'. Nursing, along with other professions has 'vocational' qualifications, specific ones that get you to SRN/SEN (is that right?).

It doesn't necessarily mean that a nurse wouldn't have umpteen qualifications at higher level, just that a specific training qualification is needed for nursing, I have a degree in statistics, I'd be laughed out of a hospital with it. In my field, it's correct.

The qualification is really neither here nor there, regardless of how hard somebody has worked for it. By that I mean that nurses and other caring professionals who remember why they went into the profession, are worth their weight in platinum. A string of letters after their name makes no difference to their dedication.

The pay grades are lousy, absolutely crap. I don't know what can be done about that, it will probably get worse before it gets better.... I just hope that it does eventually get better.

Wanster your point about accountability is frankly crazy. Nurses get reported to the NMC if they don't do their jobs properly. Solicitors and barristers can get reported to the Law Society and Bar Council respectively. Comparing the rates of complaint would be frankly pointless but they are both professions with stringent registration requirements and frameworks in place to identify and weed out those who do not perform.

In addition both nurses and lawyers can be and are found legally liable for negligent conduct in the courts.

If you don't feel happy with the way you were treated in hospital complain to the PALS team. If you aren't happy with the response you can take it higher within the hospital trust or to the health service ombudsman. There is a huge infrastructure in place to enable patients to speak up about poor standards of care. Coming on here and arguing from a single experience that nurses don't care about patients and sit around chatting is offensive and pointless.

But since we're using anecdotes as our gold standard data here I'd just like to say I've had three hospital admissions and numerous outpatient appointments in the last 8m. I've been extremely ill and very frightened on each of these occasions and I have never encountered anything other than thoroughly professional and compassionate care. Knowing from my sister how demanding the role is I find it genuinely wonderful that the nurses I meet have time to ask how I am, try to reassure me, ensure I'm not in pain or discomfort and even quite frequently bring me water! If any of you nurses work at the Derby Royal I think you are fab.

Chen23 What's your point exactly? You've quoted me but I don't know what for?

MillyR I doubt that the water was unavailable - I have 30 years in nursing and I simply do not believe that there are no catering staff regularily supplying water,food etc to patients - it is part of ward life that these things happen.

In the cases where patients become dehydrated or malnourished - I think this is because they cannot reach their food or water and so require assistance .
On wards that are chronically understaffed it is possible that patients do not receive the help they need. It only takes one or two staff to go off sick and it becomes impossible to meet patients needs . No matter how hard you try-impossible. No matter how many times you inform management nothing is done. Nurses often go home in utter despair that they cannot do the job they love properly. They do 12 hour shifts with no breaks and often stay late and it still isnt enough

applauds VeronicaCake

Very well put.

My mum had a liver transplant recently, an extremely traumatising experience only made bearable by the compassion, hard work and empathy of the over worked nurses who cared for her.

sorry lying witch, I was pointing out that I thought you may have missed at least one instance of someone putting nurses down in a pretty patronising manner.

On second reading I realise you were just pointing out that people were missing the point of the thread, which I think a good few people were; along the way there was at least a smidgen of undervaluing going on also.

HJ, I don't really get your point. If somebody can't reach their water, it is unavailable to them. There is clearly a great difference between a nurse saying she couldn't get somebody water because of an understaffed ward where she was put in a position of not being able to meet all the patients' needs and others on this thread saying it isn't a nurses' role to get water and that you should go to a hotel if you want water fetching.

It is everybody's role as a human being to get somebody a glass of water if they cannot move.

My issue is with your phrasing Milly, I am sorry but it is completely oversimplifying the issue to say people were refused water. I have nursed many people who are unable to drink water, too confused to drink the water, too confused to keep the IV line in for the IV fluids, too ill to get IV access on, people with renal failure which cannot be fixed with this magic water people speak of....Do you understand what I'm saying? But I have never, ever witnessed a patient refused water. I have had families think their relative is being refused water, but actually we couldn't safely give patients water because they couldn't physically swallow it. It is fine to have opinions about the NHS, obviously I would never be so ridiculous as to say people can't. But people have to acknowledge that what you feel about a situation is not necessarily correct if you have no background knowledge, and it would be nice if people had enough respect for the fact that the majority of us know what we are doing, and if they don't understand something then asked why a particular decision was made, or why someone could not be made better. The media fuels a lot of this anyway, some of the stories they print are blatantly, dazzlingly obviously untrue. I have the benefit of being able to read between the lines when this stuff is printed, not everyone does.