For being furious at DH telling DSD that my degree isn't a real degree?

[TooFarGone]

So DH is sat down with his DD taking about careers etc. He says to her "these days, you need a job that pays at least £20k a year but at the same time, you don't want to be stressing yourself out with difficult degrees and stuff. You want to enjoy your time at uni. That's why I think nursing would be ideal for you! you get to go to uni, you don't have to do a difficult degree and you get a well paid job at the end of it!".

So DSD says "But isn't a degree in nursing going to be just as difficult?" and he replied "no course not, they call it a degree but its not like a real degree".

I'm furious as I worked bloody hard to get my degree and he knows this. It isn't an "easy option" at all. I had it out with him and he apologised for upsetting me but still maintains that nursing is an easy alternative to doing a "real" degree.

The water issue is totally irrelevant to the op.

Anyway, I doubt wamster that you didn't get water because the nurses all had a degree. I don't think that nurses think "I've got a degree so I'm not going to get anyone any water". Anyway I'd be surprised if the nurses involved did have a degree, at the minute the majority have diplomas. Degree only is coming in for 2012 I believe.

I think it's far more likely it wasnt noticed. The health care support workers tend to do water jug rounds twice a day where they're replenished. So that's two jugs of water a day. If you do drink it all before the next round then I doubt anyone would notice. People will generally ask if they want more. The only people who should have their jugs checked at other times are those too poorly to ask. Though ime they're also too poorly to drink a lotion their own. So will either be on iv fluids or getting help with drinking at regular periods so it would be noticed.

I didn't mention teachers because I thought everyone should attack them!

I was saying, what's wrong with saying SOME people in a profession don't do their job properly?

Xenia - I know of several chief executives of hospital trusts who started off as nurses.

Not to mention most of the nursing agencies which can make an absolute fortune, are owned by nurses. Ditto nurse recruitment agencies. Many nurses go into medical sales and again, there is money to be made there too. Like many other jobs, if you have the business acumen and desire you can go on to be very wealthy.

In terms of everyday work, if you specialise in Theatres/ICU and are willing to travel, you can make considerably more than 20k.

As an aside, while I agree that nurses should be paid more, the perception of of nursing as barely subsistence level drugery annoys me and is bad for the profession.

And also (shock, horror) there are people around whose main motivation is not to make loadsamoney, but rather to be able to earn a living doing a job they enjoy, which is also beneficial to other people. Surely our only ambition for our daughters (and sons) should be that they are happy with what they are doing, whether that happens to make them a lot of money, or not?
Making money is certainly not the central theme of my life anyway.

Your DH's choice of terminology was unfortunate, though he sounds quite well meaning.

IMO, nursing is a very good choice of career, especially if you go a long way with it. There are lots of options for PT working and you can do it all over the world.

Someone who is 1) too inarticulate to explain the difference between a vocational and an academic degree, and 2) too dense to grasp that a degree with a practical, workplace component is harder work than say English Lit or Social & Political Sciences should probably not try to dispense career advice.

Just saying.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as they say."

So you're now describing a nursing degree as a "little knowledge"?

I'm not quite sure how a debate on the level of difficulty regarding a nursing degree has hinged almost entirely on an anecdote from someone who clearly has some issues with the entire nursing profession.

MummyTigger For the (seemingly) hundredth time, this was not a one-off- the Care Quality Commission are looking into incidences at Mid-Staffordshire Trust hospitals about what appears to be institutionalised neglect of the elderly as regards their food and water needs.

Repeat: not a one-off.

You seem to be at the other end of the spectrum; you genuinely beleive nurses can do no wrong at all. Wake up and stop being so naive!

And as for complaining about not being given water as 'nitpicking' Good grief.

OK

that's me convinced

Nurses are all sadistic incompetent educationally sub normal patient killers.

anything I missed?

The issues at Mid Staffordshire were about the trust board deciding to implement policies which directly impacted on patient care in order to acheive foundation status. I can understand any bad hospital experience would skew a person's perspective but the issue has nothing to do with whether nurses have degrees or not or the standard of those degrees. The concept that Nurses do not have to be academic is quite dangerous, health care professionals need to be able to pick up a research article, read it, understand it and apply it to practice.

(sigh) Dame Jo Williams of the Care Quality Commission in an interview said that out of the 100 or so hospitals where unannounced visits had been made, about half failed to provide elderly patients with adequate water and food.

She cited an incident where a clinician had to prescribe drinking water. She described this as being 'shocking'.

So let us not believe for one second that my particular incident was a on-off.

The public are waking up to the fact that nurses are not angels and they are getting hacked off with the prospect of degrees for nurses when it seems not even the basics are being carried out correctly. Learn to walk before you can run seems the public's opinion on the matter.

what do you do for a living Wamster?

I know the topic has moved on a bit but there is something niceguy2 said at the start of the tread, on Tuesday, which needs to be corrected. He said:

"It's now more important than ever to get a degree which is relevant to the job you want to do. So computing, engineering, marketing, business studies, languages...they're all good solid degrees which will hopefully stand you in good stead.What your DSD should avoid are the soft degrees like Media Studies, Philosophy, Politics (unless she wants to be a politician) or the more bizzare degrees like "David Beckham Studies" & "Surfing Studies""

Most of this is untrue. Here are the facts:

a) Computer science has the lowest rate of graduate employment. Vets, Dentists and medics have the highest.

b) History, Philosophy, Politics, English etc. all have a higher rate of graduate employment than Maths, Physical Sciences, Business and Engineering.

c) Graduates of a subject such as politics do not go on to become politicians just as History students rarely intend to become Historians or Literature students novelist. Most of these want, and get, white-collar management jobs that require general skills of being able to read, understand, think, explain, analyse etc.

d) The biggest influence on graduate employment is not subject but where you studied it. The best are the vocational schools (School of Pharamacy has a 100% employment rate, Central School of Speech and Drama has 98.3%).

e) ALL graduates, of whatever subject, are much more likely to get a job than non-graduates.

f) There is no such thing as David Beckham Studies. This is a lie spun by journalists on the basis of a single course (not a degree) at Staffordshire that examined the history, sociology, economy and culture of British Football. There is also no such thing as Surf Studies. There is a single degree in Surf Science and Technology at Plymouth. It combines vocational training in coaching with studies of business, management and the scientific study of the marine environment. It is a small, niche course and as such has a very good graduate employment rate.

g) Newspapers make up lots of things about university degrees. This is because most journalists have degrees and a disproportionate number of them went to Public School (especially those working on tabloids). They have mostly opposed the expansion of university education. This is because they got where they are through money and family links and do not want to have to compete with people who have succeeded through effort and learning.

h) TooFarGone's DSD should study something she really likes and cares about, something she can commit wholeheartedly to studying. Whatever it is, in working for a degree in it she will learn not only about that subject but also about herself and her skills and interests. She will also learn: how to manage her workloads and her time, how to meet deadlines, how to fulfill precisely the requirements for tasks set by others, how to talk in public, how to access information and how to communicate it others and much more. All of this will be valuable experience for her and help her in a wide range of careers as well as other important life experiences.

To look at the figures on graduate employment, produced by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, see here: www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jul/15/employment-statistics-university-graduates

When so many are claiming that a return to elitism is a good thing, a post like yours is very refreshing.

Absolutely fantastic post, Jamey.

Where has there been elitism on this thread? Academic degrees and vocational qualifications are different; one's not better than the other and if they lead to employment that's what matters.

Why does it need to be a one-upmanship of 'mine's better than yours'? So childish and ignorant.

Wamster - The public have a view that they should be cared for better which is right. In my opinion as someone who qualified in 1995 the main reason for the deterioration in care is to do with the high bed occupancy rates and the need to clear beds as soon as possible whatever the risk to the patient. When I started the average length of stay for a hip operation was 7-11 days, it's now 3-4 days if that and the turnover of patients means that Nurses are under pressure all the time and this leads to a dehumanisation of patients. Same on busy maternity wards. This is an organisational flaw, the NHS has adopted a neo tayloristic approach which means that instead of the HCP following the same patient, patients are doled out to different HCP's at each shift and therefore do not develop a relationship. In the community this tends not to happen and the perception of standard of care is much higher.

It is the media who harp on about matrons and nurses with degrees that are too posh to wash etc... but the problem lies with the organisation rather than the level of education. If I was stuck in bed I would prefer a nurse with a high level of knowledge of recent research about pressure care issues making sure that I don't get pressure sores than someone with upteen years of experience but no recent education hoiking me up the bed because that's what they have always done, this causing painful pressure sores.

Yes, Jamey is right that actually you're better off with Engilsh from Oxford for many business careers which take gradutes than something which sounds of relevant to business like business studies from an ex poly. You certainly need to tread carefully.

This reminds me of sitting in a lecture with A level students - a lecturer in computing was talking to them about the courses available if they studied at that (good) university.

She said that it wasn't essential that they had A level Computing. She didn't care about that. She said "What's important is that you are clever."

Consternation all around me.

My only experience of computing graduates is that I worked in a call centre with a couple of them.

Wamster you seem a tiny bit confused - The CQC are not currently investigating Staffordshire -the inquiry findings were published in March 2009.
The recommendations and standards were then implemented.
Protected mealtimes , complex nutritional assessments and red water jugs,glasses and trays for patients who need assistance were implemented over the past 2 years so that allstaff are aware .These trays are not removed until the nurse in charge has checked the patients intake .

Chen23 - apparently Wamster a teacher, but has a degree in nursing. Not sure whether I believe it or not. Wamster - I've posted around four or five links detailing precisely why standards of care have slipped and you've clearly not read a single one of them. You refuse to acknowledge anyone who tries to have a genuine discussion with you, and instead you sit there throwing around insults. It's getting ridiculous. I'm not the only poster to explain this to you, and what's worse is as a nurse you should know the hardships that nurses go through daily. It's not the nurses fault - it's senior management being controlling pen-pushers.

Jamey67 TooFarGone's DSD should study something she really likes and cares about, something she can commit wholeheartedly to studying. Whatever it is, in working for a degree in it she will learn not only about that subject but also about herself and her skills and interests. She will also learn: how to manage her workloads and her time, how to meet deadlines, how to fulfill precisely the requirements for tasks set by others, how to talk in public, how to access information and how to communicate it others and much more. All of this will be valuable experience for her and help her in a wide range of careers as well as other important life experiences.

I absolutely agree. There's no point in pursuing something you aren't passionate about. I can't stand Physics, and would rather shoot myself than pursue a degree in Physics just because I get a £20K salary at the end of the three year course. I probably would hang myself - calculating every variable to make it quick and painless of course!

And HermionesJumper - I wouldn't bother. Wamster doesn't seem to like to listen. And she certainly doesn't respond to such decent reasoning as yours.

I know Mummytigger However it really upsets me when people who are clearly ignorant regarding current practice spout such tripe

It annoys me further when they just don't seem to want to listen to anything other than what they believe is correct. It's as bad as my brother when he was five - would argue the toss that the grass wasn't green, it was blue. And whoever told him it was actually green would get a smack and a tantrum.