For being furious at DH telling DSD that my degree isn't a real degree?

[TooFarGone]

So DH is sat down with his DD taking about careers etc. He says to her "these days, you need a job that pays at least £20k a year but at the same time, you don't want to be stressing yourself out with difficult degrees and stuff. You want to enjoy your time at uni. That's why I think nursing would be ideal for you! you get to go to uni, you don't have to do a difficult degree and you get a well paid job at the end of it!".

So DSD says "But isn't a degree in nursing going to be just as difficult?" and he replied "no course not, they call it a degree but its not like a real degree".

I'm furious as I worked bloody hard to get my degree and he knows this. It isn't an "easy option" at all. I had it out with him and he apologised for upsetting me but still maintains that nursing is an easy alternative to doing a "real" degree.

I think there's major confusion between the words 'academic' and 'hard' on this thread. Some degrees can be bloody hard work without being remotely academic and some can be very academic while remaining relatively easy to do.

I would say that a banker, a nurse and a dustman all work equally hard.
But those three careers are clear examples of what leads on from an academic degree, a voational degree and no degree.

I have 2 degrees. My BA in English Literature/History is a pure academic degree. I had to get three As to get a place on it and the material was mentally challenging. I found it difficult but I only had around 8 contact hours a week and probably only worked for about 20 hours a week.

My PGCE is a vocational degree. I probably worked around 60 hours a week for most of it and spent all day either in uni or on placement. It was stressful and physically/emotionally draining. But the academic content was very easy.

I'm sure that a nursing degree is extremely hard work and I wouldn't have wanted those kind of hours as an undergrad (my priority was fun for the first year and a half and my baby after that). But it is not academically difficult in the same way that a science, classics or history degree is.

Also, I think it would be a shame if nursing became an academic career to the exclusion of all the care and support they give at the moment.

When my Dad went into hospital to die we didn't see a doctor. He was already terminal and on his way out, they had nothing more they could do. It was nurses who let him suck water from a sponge they held on a stick because he could no longer swallow, nurses who found a radio that he could listen to his favourite station on as he died, nurses who changed the sheets when he wet them, nurses who took myself and my sister into a side room and explained what was happening to our Dad and what to expect and nurses who let our entire of family of 8 stay by his bed long past visiting hours had ended until he died at 4 in the morning.

I don't know how we would have coped without the nursing care of those wonderful people. It wasn't medical knowledge we needed, it was what the job title says it is - nursing.

pmsl at oxford spoonfeeding and micro managing. it's the exact opposite. I had 2 hours contact time a week - 24 weeks a year. plus about 2 lectures in the first week of my first year (soon gave up on those) and about 5 revision classes in my third year. which were mainly pointless. the rest of my time was completely my own. I had to research and write 2 essays a week. and at the end of it all I had to take 8 exams in about 6 days.

when I did a masters at LSE as a mature student - where there's a very similar attitude to contact time compared with independent study the oxbridge people did fine - but many of the others were perplexed, looking for the spoons.

Can I just point out that nursing is a bloody hard degree. I'm in my final year and we have to know human anatomy and function in detail, pharmacology ( not just calculating dosage but how each med works, contraindications etc), Ecg interpretation amongst other things. The uni I attend prides itself on the quality of nursing research that they conduct. We have had med students asking nursing students how to do things ( scary to think that the JHO that is prescribing fluids etc are so unsure ).

Just to completely hark back for a second...

Abra1d, you posted an example of a maths O level paper. Now, I haven't done any kind of maths beyons GCSE (which was nearly 9 years ago), but I would be able to answer all of those questions. The only thing that might throw me slightly would be the 'old money' they refer to.

Unless GCSE maths has taken a total nosedive since 2003, I don't think it's particularly easier. Not at 'higher' level anyway. I can't speak for the foundation level.

Agree with Manic.

You are very welcome iambadger. Ta for saving the lives of people I love :)

I also think nurses are given a lot more responsibility nowdays as well and do more things that the Dr would have done years ago.

Some of you lot are unbelievable. It is the nurses jobs to ensure that patients receive adequate hydration; people are sick in hospital and in an alien environment, too frightened to ask for the basics, and you mock them for it.

If you were anything OTHER than apologetic for a patient not receiving water, I think the NMC should strike you all off as you:
a, Do not understand that the buck stops with you and not the nursing assistants (the clue is in the name 'assistant' i.e. they do what you tell them to do)

b, No understanding of people's basics needs.

At least accept that nurses should be accountable for this. For goodness sake, mistakes are made and we are all human but at least accept responsibility when things go wrong! THAT is what being accoutable means.

And I am sorry, but it is utterly typical of nurses to assume that time on a course = academic achievement. Some of them are too thick to realise that Oxbridge doesn't spoonfeed students anything.

'Abra1d, you posted an example of a maths O level paper. Now, I haven't done any kind of maths beyons GCSE (which was nearly 9 years ago), but I would be able to answer all of those questions. '

I got a grade B in O level maths in 1980. I thought the even older (1968) O level (the one I posted) looks harder than the one I took.

dear oh dear manicinsomniac, how dare you comment on the acaedmic rigour of a degree you know bugger all about? the nursing degree I took included sciences such as microbiology, anatomy and physiology, pharmacology, biology and physics. it also included philosophy, psychology, sociology, health care management, as well as nursing theory and practice etc... I have since studied for a MSc NOT IN NURSING and a PhD NOT IN NURSING and I am telling you that my nursing degree stretched me academically and stood me in very good stead for doing well in future studies. Guess what? I am now an academic at Cambridge University so stick that in your pipe.

Op not been back then?

Wamster, so were you too tired or too frightened to ask for water? Genuine question btw.

"And I am sorry, but it is utterly typical of nurses to assume that time on a course = academic achievement. Some of them are too thick to realise that Oxbridge doesn't spoonfeed students anything."

Your prejudice / grudge against nurses is becoming more and more apparent with each post.

Abra1d. Of course, it would be difficult for either of us to compare effectively based purely on what we remember! I'd have to look at a modern GCSE paper to compare.

I was pretty good at maths (got an A), but not a natural genius or anything.

Wamster has a history of nurse bashing:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1246245-feminine-jobs-professions-Nursing-childcare-are-the-reasons-that-they-are-paid-less-despite-generally-requiring-graduate-qualifications-an-indication-of-societal-devaluation-of-womens-work

It's almost a fixation.

As a very clever lady with a fine nursing degree i'm sure you know of a way to kill him without being done for it?? lol xx

Chen23 According to Wamster, he was just too tired to ask for it.

And as catgirl put it -
Wamster was not ill enough to warrant being put on a drip and "too tired" (not too ill, or infirm or frightened) to ask for water. Not too tired to make observations and judgements about the nurses behaviour, but too tired to ask for some water.
Every profession has a range of people however Wamster has however been extremely derogatory about entire profession based on a bloody glass of water he was "too tired" to ask for. Wamster - your tiredness outweighed your thirst. I think thirst is a greater need than sleep, (afterall thirst will wake people up, you can die from thirst but not from lack of sleep) so if you were "too tired" to ask for water, you weren't that thirsty.

We have already explained to him that if it were that much of an issue he should take it up with his hospital, but he is just sitting there saying the same thing over and over again: that "nurses need to anticipate patient needs". At this point I'm not even sure if he's being genuinely this obtuse, or just stoking the fire for the fun of it.

I would also just like to point out that people expect nurses to be all-knowing, all-encompassing and omnipotent. They are expected to know each individual patient by name, exactly what's wrong with them, exactly what they are being treated with, exactly how this will affect them, exactly when the doctor will show up, exactly how much medication to give, exactly how much medical intervention is necessary at any given time, exactly what all of the other nurses and nursing assistants are doing and their exact locations... the list is endless. They need to know endless procedures, endless prescriptions, endless processes in order to navigate the red tape and endless other bits of information that could mean the difference between life and death. And any person who thinks they don't need a degree to do any of their care is being delusional.

I'd love to see someone go through, say, an appendectomy performed by a surgeon without a degree. Because it's exactly the same scenario. Without the proper training and proof that you're trained to a certain level, people will suffer and, in all probability, die.

Newsflash! Women can have degrees and still care about other people! Nurses can have degrees and still be happy to do personal care! Nurses can be well educated and intelligent and still caring and willing to get their hands dirty!

I never said they couldn't, I'm merely disagreeing with Wamsters opinion that they should be compassionate and hand-holding to such an extent that the other duties senior management pile upon nurses are left behind. They need to be able to prioritise and if someone is dying in the room next door, you can't be expected to have a nurse next to you saying "don't worry about them, I'll be here for you my darling pet".

If it weren't so mis-managed, then they'd be able to do everything that people expect of them. But people shove them up on a pedestal, pile three tonnes of crap onto their shoulders, then scream and swear and complain that they aren't doing their jobs right when they inevitably take the tumble because they aren't able to cope with the extra workload.

I know young people need a little guidance in the career department, but what does she feel would be the right degree for her. She had got to be happy to do it.

Sorry I should have said that was not directed at you MummyTigger just meant that the general tone of the thread seems to be that educating nurses to degree level will make them less caring than they would have been.

Ah I see, I'm sorry about the confusion!

Honestly though: they hold lives in their hands every single day. That, to me, warrants a degree because they need to prove they are up to the task of caring for someone.

I'm going to really try and put this in a way that won't offend anyone, but if I fail I really am sorry - it isn't intentional. A lot of jobs nowadays require degrees... but why? Surely a degree in Journalism isn't necessary to be a good journalist? A degree in Media Studies isn't going to prove anything. There are a lot of degrees out there where the argument can be made that they are "pointless" or "not real degrees", and yet you wouldn't think to hire an architect who didn't have a degree in his field, so why hire a nurse who isn't fully-qualified?

Because, apparently, educated women can't also be caring I'm starting to think this may be a feminist issue.....

Think you have a point there Tricky, people would rather have a subservient nurse who is a bit dimwitted so does everything for them and agrees with everything they say, rather than a skilled and knowledgable one who will actually contribute to making them better. Which quite often involves a bit of work on the patient's behalf as well I'm afraid!