In thinking that Jo Frost should shut the fuck up about breastfeeding

[spudulika]

... as she clearly knows nothing about it.

If you want proof have a look at the new Jo Frost magazine (no need to buy it of course, just do what I do - rifle through it at the supermarket ). Article on breastfeeding 'how long, and when to stop'.

She seems to think that 'weaning' means stopping breastfeeding.

And she feels the need to say 'I'm the biggest fan of breastfeeding, but I don't think mothers should be made to feel like the scum of the earth for not doing it. Whatever choice you make is fine!' To which I want to respond: if I wanted to read vapid platitudes about breastfeeding I'd go to Netmums. It's free. Whereas your magazine costs... bloody loads.

It's just not asseptable.

She needs to pull her socks up.

I don't know who Jo Frost is, but as someone who is tentatively thinking about TTC, being told "you have to BF for two years, you know" would make me not do it at all - who can manage that kind of thing and keep a job? But being told "Six months' BFing would be brilliant" would make it seem much more possible.

Crap advice on BF, very good advice on DISCIPLINE.
She should stick to what she does best, end of.

Pointydog, are you OK on her advising on breastfeeding?

What advising has Jo Frost been doing?

pointydog Tue 12-Jul-11 13:45:23
"I don't think it's any sort of scandal that she doesn't have qualifications for what she does.

She has straightforward ideas about routines, rules and correct behaviour and she can help people implement them so they have a happier time with their children. "

Do we know that her interventions make for a longterm improvement for these children? And one that outweights the potential social disadvantages of having been portrayed on national television (probably watched by all your mates) as the child with serious problems?

wompoopigeon I saw the one with the girl who pulled out her eyelashes and was quite - there's a condition called trichotillomania that causes people to pull their own hair out, including eyebrows and eyelashes. That was my first thought on hearing about that poor kid - it sounded to me as if they should rule that out before deciding she was 'manipulating' them and should be ignored

chocciechip just to reassure you, it is perfectly possible to feed in public without anyone seeing anything, so try not to worry. You can try the patented Mumsnet 'two vests' method and the baby's head covers the rest. If you practise in front of a mirror when your baby arrives you'll see how little is on display (I am the sort of person who gets changed under a towel at the gym, but I feed DS all over the place). Good luck with it all. The breast and bottle feeding board on MN is very supportive and very different to the bf/ff threads on AIBU.

OP I agree with you that the advice given in the article regarding how long to bf is complete crap. I think her other point (about giving it a go but not beating yourself up if it doesn't work out) is fair enough though, tbh.

YANBU to want a so called expert to get things right and give accurate information and understand the topic they are talking about is emotive and that breastfeeding is an experience unique to every mother and child and so there are no set rules on when to stop etc.

YABU for this: "And she feels the need to say 'I'm the biggest fan of breastfeeding, but I don't think mothers should be made to feel like the scum of the earth for not doing it. Whatever choice you make is fine!' To which I want to respond: if I wanted to read vapid platitudes about breastfeeding I'd go to Netmums."

Because she's right, platitude or not.

YANBU. I can 't stand her or her car crash tv shows. She always strikes me as a bit thick. I wouldn't employ a nanny with her BMI ( go on shoot me)

"but as someone who is tentatively thinking about TTC, being told "you have to BF for two years, you know" would make me not do it at all"

Who says this? The WHO says 2 years of bf is optimal. Not mandatory. If you're only TTC (good luck with that by the way!) and you're already imagining that there are rules dictating two years of breastfeeding..... Well, it'll only get worse.

"- who can manage that kind of thing and keep a job?"

The 100 million breastfeeding women worldwide who have to be economically active in the months following birth, because unlike us they a) can't afford formula and b) don't get maternity pay.

On a personal note, I went back to work when my first was 5 weeks old. And continued to breastfeed for 18 months.

"But being told "Six months' BFing would be brilliant" would make it seem much more possible."

Why shouldn't we do what women in other countries do in large numbers without loads of fuss and angst? Is there something special about women in the UK today that it's simply no longer biologically or socially possible for us to do what our great grandmothers did in the 1930's - when the average family size was about double what it is today and when most families didn't have a washing machine?

I am not British and I grew up in society where most women do breastfeed by necessity and most in public without any issues (no need to pass laws protecting women's rights to breastfeed in public in Africa). So your assumptions about me and who I am are completely incorrect (and a touch judgemental).

No - not a list of clinical benefits - although some acknowledgement (especially given there was a terrified women in the class) of psychological benefits of knowing medical pain relief was a viable option and safe option - given the risk of natural options is they may not work - might have been helpful. Unless you totally deny that some women suffer from PTSD or have bad birth experiences or have a morbid fear of childbirth.

Similarly, a balanced analyses of risks would help: for example, saying 8/1000 women will have blinding headaches from leaking spinal fluid after an epdural that last for 10 days and sometimes longer is a pretty scary statement. I didn't know that. But I do know that its not as scary as it seems because the maths also means 99.2% of women who have an epidural possibly do not have headaches that last ten days so I'm not particularly as freaked out by the scary stat as the other woman in the class was. Maybe you'd feel also feel a dufus doing the math for the class, but I can tell you that when I was worrying about my age and Downs, the reverse stats were more reassuring than the negative ones. And I can tell you that in the midst of my anxiety I wasn't thinking clearly and sometimes having things spelled out when in a state of fear is helpful. And it was the reverse stats that were emphasised to me throughout my early pregnancy, I assume to reassure me and ally my fears - which they did. The fact that the scariest statements and stats were trotted out in this class led me to believe that reassurance and choice about risk was not a top priority; there was, I felt, a definite push towards only one option. There are similar balanced views to most risks for all the medical pain relief options - none of these were forthcoming in the class until I brought them up.

Do we know that her interventions make for a longterm improvement for these children? And one that outweights the potential social disadvantages of having been portrayed on national television (probably watched by all your mates) as the child with serious problems?

You are throwing up completely different issues there, cory.

Do I think JF has fairly sensible ideas on child behaviour? Yes.

Do I think it's a Good Thing for parents to be allowed to display their shockingly behaved childrne on TV? No.

Do I think children can have a hellish time from friends and public after being on Frost? Possibly.

Do I think TV parents are able to consistently follow Frost's advice until their children become adults? I don't know.

"Because she's right, platitude or not"

Operating on the assumption that there are lots of people out there who think that non-bf mums should be made to feel like the scum of the earth?

Are there really lots of people out there who believe this? Honestly? Or is she just having a good old stir?

Spudulika, unlike me presumably they get to bring their child with them while working: I don't see your comparison as being an equal one.

And at the beginning of this thread IIRC there were people complaining loudly about the fact that JF was recommending only 6 months. Hence my point.

Just popping in....:) To cory - the thread you are referring to, where supposedly a woman was berated for preferring to cover up, has been misremembered by you. I remember personally saying several times that no one sensible objected to her having preferences for herself but that it was highly objectionable that she thought other women ought to wear one - she was pretty rude about anyone who didnt, too (called them 'grandstanders') and [www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1248989-FFS-this-woman-fancies-herself-as-Jeremy-Clarkson here's the thread if you want to refresh your memory]].

Jo Frost's website had rubbish info about bf a couple of years ago and I emailed with corrections, and nothing happened. She's right that no one deserves any sort of judgment about feeding choices, but wrong to be unaware that it is normal for breastfeeding to continue beyond the age at which solids are added.

There is support and info for all feeding options in the breastfeeding and bottle feeding folder. I don't recall any thread where someone has asked something about ff and been told to 'call a lactivist' - but sometimes, someone will post about ff because bf has stopped and they are sad about it, and is unaware that relactation is an option; they are often very glad to learn about it. As long as the info that this is sometimes possible is made politely, why would anyone object?

YANBU.

Jo Frost should as an "expert" should only provide advice based on evidence. The BF for only 6 months thing is a social construct which I imagine came about because that was the length of statutory Maternity Leave. It is separate from the weaning issue and should not be confused with the weaning issue.

FWIW - I think the naughty step for hyper/naughty children is a load of bull aswell ( having tried it) Being calm until they are calm is MUCH better!

tiktok Tue 12-Jul-11 14:04:39
"Just popping in.... To cory - the thread you are referring to, where supposedly a woman was berated for preferring to cover up, has been misremembered by you."

I think you missed something here- wasn't me referring to this thread.

Now you mention it I do remember the thread, and I felt the same as you do: why should this woman project her feelings on other people? I for one have never had a problem with bf-ing in public and would not relish being told that I should have.

So I would be most unlikely to post along the lines you mention. I'm a Swede for goodness sake: we don't have problems with these things!

You know spud - 'scum of the earth' is a heavy statement and perhaps you are being too literal. Because if you can't see how this statement from you isn't laden with inferred judgement and criticism then I don't know.... And I suspect that its this sort of thing that gets up the noses of women and makes them feel as if suggesstions are being made that they are wrong/misguided/unnatural (add in other pejorative words) which is possibly summed up in the minds of some as feeling like the 'scum of the earth'.

"Actually if you lived in a society where bf was the norm and you'd grown up surrounded by the sight of babies of all ages feeding at the breast, you probably wouldn't have spent 5 minutes agonising about any of these issues. The fact that it all worries you so much - the appearance of your breasts, how you're going to cope with breastfeeding in public, your worries and expectations about things going wrong, what other people will think about your decisions about how you feed your baby - you probably wouldn't be having any of these thoughts........"

Sorry, cory, it was chocciechip :(

chocciechip - you have misremembered the thread....and if you mean this one www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1218792-what-do-you-think-when-you-see-someone-using-a-bfing-cover you misremembered that one, too!

People are in general supportive of people's preferences, and accept that individuals are affected by cultural norms - just take the perfectly understandable view that this does not mean everyone has to feel the same way.

Spudulika - yes, I think there are some, how many I couldn't say.

It's hard to comment without bringing in conversations I've had on other websites or personal issues with friends. I also don't want to start or add to a row here about BF vrs FF on here.

But without giving too much away, I've had comments made to me about our feeding methods when LO was small, one friend has two daughter with CF and before her eldest was diagnosed she was told by her doctor that her daughters colds and chest infections were her fault for not breastfeeding. In fact it was the CF making itself known. On facebook during the Mother and Baby Katherine Whatsit row someone liked formula feeding to not strapping your child into a car seat while travelling in the car.

So there are people who do believe it, or at least feel more confident about saying it from the safety of the internet to total strangers.

It may or may not be a common attitude but it's one that some people have and there is no need for it. So she is right in what she says, no mother should be made to feel bad for her choice.

Chocciechip, if anyone on the bf threads ever says someone should NOT cover up, they would usually be shouted down. If anyone says someone SHOULD cover up, they are shouted down. Generally the reasonable consensus is that we each make our own choices and Butt Out of other peoples' business. And that it would be great if wider society was more tolerant and less judgemental about all feeding choices, (ff / bf / discreet / 'indiscreet')!

I haven't actually seen the thread you mention where a poor poster was criticised for choosing how SHE fed. Only ones where people have been criticised for telling others how they should feed. Actually, I'd be keen to see that thread as I don't condone that sort of judgemental nastiness. I'd be happy to add my two pennorth worth to say so on that thread.

I do think it is a shame that society puts pressure on breastfeeding mothers to cover up. People are free to feed their babies however they choose.

YABU for objecting to 'I'm the biggest fan of breastfeeding, but I don't think mothers should be made to feel like the scum of the earth for not doing it. Whatever choice you make is fine!'

YANBU about the misleading information, though, because some people think that carrying on breastfeeding past six months is a bit weird and that article would only perpetuate that. The alternative message to 'it's normal to stop at 6 months' isn't 'you should carry on', but 'it's fine to carry on and it can benefit your baby'.

"given the risk of natural options is they may not work - might have been helpful."

Yes. Also pain relief doesn't work for everyone. About half of women who have pethidine find it ineffective. About one third have a very negative reaction to it - nausea, disorientation etc. And for one in ten women the epidural won't take. Nationally about 10% of women (many more in some hospitals) don't get an epidural when they request it.

So there is a very significant risk that pharmacological pain relief won't provide all the answers for many women.

" Unless you totally deny that some women suffer from PTSD or have bad birth experiences or have a morbid fear of childbirth"

Though interestingly enough the key factor in PTSD and poor birth experiences generally isn't primarily the degree of pain the mother suffers - it's about the quality of care, the degree of control she has, and the health outcomes following with birth.

For low risk mums the lowest rates of PTSD and negative birth experiences are associated with birth settings where there are restricitions on the type of pain relief available. Interesting doncha think? And that's even when you factor in all the women who book to have their babies in these places but end up transferring to a CLU for an assisted delivery, epidural or c/s.

I agree with you though - it's how it's put. Glass half full or glass half empty.

Intervention rates are INCREDIBLY high among first time mums in their 30's - and of course this is the NCT's main client group. I do a bit of doula'ing and know some NCT teachers through this. I get the feeling some of them become a bit crazed by seeing all their healthy, low risk mums going into hospital to have their babies, having taken such good care of themselves all through pregnancy, then get crap care, ending with two thirds of them coming out having experienced one or all of the following - episiotomy, third degree tears, forceps bruising, postnatal infections, c/s etc, etc.

Sorry - that's not very encouraging. But it's the truth. Best be realistic and prepared no?

If you don't agree with her parenting methods - fine each to their own. But another bloody debate about breastfeeding.....yawn. There is enough information out there advising on the benefits etc, and unless in this country you'be been living under a rock for god knows how long I fail to see how most people wouln't be aware of the benefits etc of being best for baby but for various reasons some mums can't/ choose not to continue. The judgy brigade strike again - I don't know why some women get their knickers in such a twist over the other's choices and feel the need to be so smug about it.

"So there are people who do believe it, or at least feel more confident about saying it from the safety of the internet to total strangers"

I've seen nasty, stupid comments made by both 'sides'.

But it's only those people who say these things in supposed support of breastfeeding who are portrayed as part of some organised and socially sanctioned group of fanatics. Which they're not. There are no organisations or publications which promote these views, and there is no organised campaign to support them. Jo Frost implies that these views are widely held, instead of the beliefs of a few idiots, and in doing that she's inflaming the debate in the most unhelpful way possible.

They are not 'her' ideas.

Time out, consistancy, not filling your kids full of crap food and letting them stay up till they want to go to bed - she didnt invent these concepts.

And we dont know what she does works for the families she visits. We see a very heavily edited programme and the US version is particularly awful. Lots of close up shots of mugging faces and dramatic music or cartoon 'ooops' noises.

I dont hate her. I dont think she is a child rearing expert either.

If she gets some people to stop letting their kids rule the household - jolly good.

But she isnt a guru.