In thinking that Jo Frost should shut the fuck up about breastfeeding

[spudulika]

... as she clearly knows nothing about it.

If you want proof have a look at the new Jo Frost magazine (no need to buy it of course, just do what I do - rifle through it at the supermarket ). Article on breastfeeding 'how long, and when to stop'.

She seems to think that 'weaning' means stopping breastfeeding.

And she feels the need to say 'I'm the biggest fan of breastfeeding, but I don't think mothers should be made to feel like the scum of the earth for not doing it. Whatever choice you make is fine!' To which I want to respond: if I wanted to read vapid platitudes about breastfeeding I'd go to Netmums. It's free. Whereas your magazine costs... bloody loads.

It's just not asseptable.

She needs to pull her socks up.

ok am supposed to be working but these are interesting psychological and sociological studies

Lee, E; Furedi, F (2005). Mothers? experience of, and attitudes to, using infant formula in the early months..School of Social Policy, Sociology and Social Research, University of Kent. Source: www.kent.ac.uk/sspssr/staff/academic/lee/infant-formula-full.pdf

2. Wall, G (2001) Moral Constructions of Motherhood in Breastfeeding Discourse, Gender and Society, Vol. 15, No. 4 (Aug., 2001), pp. 592-610

Murphy, E. 1999, ?Breast is best?: Infant feeding decisions and maternal deviance. Sociology of Health and Illness Vol. 21, No. 2: 187-208

Murphy, E., Parker, S., and Phipps, C. 1999. ?Motherhood, Morality and Infant Feeding?. In A Sociology of Food and Nutrition. Ed. J. Germov and L. Williams. Oxford: OUP

Anyway here are some. Fascinating reading... enjoy

When I had given birth to dd, the nurse went round the wards and asked every new mum how she proposed to feed: the mothers who said breastfeed were praised audibly, with the ones who said formula she pursed her lips and shook her head.

It didn't affect me at the time because I was determined to breastfeed and rather pleased to be thought a Good Girl. But I have wondered since if it really was the ideal approach.

On the plus side, there was a lot of bf'ing support to be had, from which I benefited. But some of those women might just have felt a bit vulnerable, particularly in such a public place.

Still, not convinced by the Joe Frost approach: I'd rather listen to a health professional.

Just wanted to correct the common misconception that the WHO only really intended the "2 years and beyond" advice to apply to poor developing countries. Not true. They intended the advice for developed countries too, because it still makes a significant health difference here too, even with our clean water and abundant food.

WHO says "As a global health policy for both developing and developed countries"

They have policies which relate only to developing countries and are clear when this is the case.

Their policy on breastfeeding to at least two years applies to developed countries.

And fwiw I am somebody who does regret not giving up bf when my baby was so obviously failing to thrive.

Not blaming it on the professionals, though: I was so totally into the idea that nothing could go wrong if you breastfed and had plenty of milk and baby latched on properly that it wouldn't have made any difference if the HVs had all been in pay to the formula companies. I simply wasn't prepared to see what was staring me in the face. I hate looking at dd's baby photos now, because I don't see how I could have done that to her. I am eternally grateful to the paediatric consultant who had her admitted to the hospital without consulting my wishes.

But I still wouldn't listen to Supernanny.

Based on what you've said about her magazine/article, YANBU.

I also agree with you about the crap advice given to convince mothers that bf isn't working and it's isn't the end of the world to give up etc. when they wanted to persevere. The midwife (the one that visits home for 10 days post-birth) kept trying to persuade me to give up parroting rubbish like "Happy Mum, Happy Baby" and "It's fine to put her on formula" etc. when she could see that I wanted to breastfeed. It is not the advice I wanted, I wanted to be supported in my decision to breastfeed. I had made no decision to stop and yet she was telling me that that's what I should be thinking of.

Quite a relief when the visits stopped :). Oh and I continued to breastfeed until baby was nearly 2.

Spud but how much support is reasonable? I 'gave up' bf last time at 5wks. Ds was feeding fine, he just liked to take his time about it. I had struggled in the early days but it was getting better. However, I also had 2 other dcs who needed me and had activities which I felt were more important to them than how their brother was fed.

Would it have been reasonable for me to expect a home help plus a nanny to take dds to their activities? I think not.

And this time (#4 arriving Friday) I will do the same. If it turns out to be an efficient eater then I will carry on bf as long as I want to. Be that 2wks or 2yrs. If not then I will have to place the needs of my 3 other dcs first.

As for Jo Frost - yes, she annoys the hell out of me, but her advice on this is actually a non event. Women shouldn't be demonised for choosing. 6 months is statistically a far off goal to most so encouraging women to get that far is a good thing. Obv, I've not read the rest so can't comment beyond that.

Yes Cory - I had terrible trouble feeding DD3, it was agonising and at one point thought I would have to ff her and I was shocked at my emotional feelings and a big part of that was wanting to be a 'good girl,' a 'good mother' and it surprised me because in the end, rationally I know ff is excellent nutrition for a baby.

Bupcakesandcunting- how very witty NOT!
Who died and made you the boss?

Surprised no one has linked to this: Breast may not be best after four months: study

I intend to give breastfeeding my best shot with my first child, due soon, but am not going to preempt what may or may not happen, and am certainly not going to tolerate being made to 'feel like scum' if for some reason I feel I cannot. So on that score I agree with Jo Frost, but would have thought it was stating the obvious. I drifted onto the bf/ff thread on MN a month or so ago to be 'better informed', and honestly, for the very first time in my pregnancy I had a serious mood swing and came away totally depressed by the short-shrift one woman was getting there simply because she said she used a cover in public! FFS!! Dawned on me that 'support' may just be a euphemism for massive guilt-tripping and heavy judgement. Highly unlikely I'll be going back there if I get stuck.

Just had my first NCT class and, yikes, the judgement and gentle pressure to make 'certain directed choices' from breastfeeding to pain relief in labour to managed or natural third stage delivery was really eyebrow raising. I didn't come away 'informed about a variety of choices' - which is what the class leader kept saying she was doing. However, what I do have is a set of over the top positives about certain practices, and a tonne of negatives with zero positives about others. This is frankly implausible. I half-expected this from an NCT class so was prepared and not too flapped by it, but did feel VERY pissed off when someone who had already made decisions about pain relief, who was clearly fearful about imminent childbirth, looked stressed and tearful by all the negatives given to her, and the NCT class leader said nothing to support.

Mega - you get a lot of this, more from friends and family even.

I NEVER, ever give an opinion on how someone SHOULD feel or what they SHOULD do in these sort of circumstances. All that's needed is an acknowledgement of how tough they're finding it and some sympathy. Maybe an offer of practical help if you feel they want it. No platitudes. No unsubtle diminishing of their feelings or expectations.

"But I have wondered since if it really was the ideal approach"

No - it's completely crap, unkind and contrary to all principles of good midwifery/nursing practice. As I'm sure you know.

As is rolling your eyes when someone rings their bell for the 5th time in an hour because they're having difficulty getting their baby to latch on, taking a breastfed baby to the office on the PN ward and giving it formula because you're too busy to sit with a mum and help her breastfeed, or telling a mum it definitely won't make any difference whether she gives her breastfed baby top up bottles in hospital.

It's all shit practice, but in my experience you're much, much more likely to experience the latter in a UK hospital than the former.

By the way NormanTebbit - I have big problems with the Furedi article - it's failure to acknowledge at the outset, that breastfeeding as a cultural practice has been profoundly damaged by years and years of poor practice and widespread misinformation - and it's against this background that public health campaigns to promote breastfeed have been created.

But it all's grist to the mill for him. Probably helped him shift a few more of his 'Paranoid Parenting' books.

And of course he does sit on the panel of INFORM, a body that describes itself as `working toward informedchoice in infant feeding' which was set up by the baby food industry cartel, the Infant and Dietetic Food Association (IDFA) to campaign against any strengthening of the UK law on infant feeding

did you look at any of the feminist discourse?

"the judgement and gentle pressure to make 'certain directed choices' from breastfeeding to pain relief in labour to managed or natural third stage delivery was really eyebrow raising"

What - did your teacher not tell you about the benefits of these things as well as the risks?

spudulika Tue 12-Jul-11 12:29:50

""But I have wondered since if it really was the ideal approach"

No - it's completely crap, unkind and contrary to all principles of good midwifery/nursing practice. As I'm sure you know."

I did know. I was just challenging the suggestion earlier on the thread that this sort of thing doesn't happen; that it's only on Mumsnet that you get this myth of formula feeding mums being made to feel uncomfortable. Because it did happen. And thought it wasn't a problem for me personally, some of the mums I have met later did struggle with that attitude and I knew from my own experience that they weren't making it up.

Otoh this was a hospital who were brilliant at supporting you in latching on in the middle of the night, I'm very happy to give them credit for that and it meant a lot to me at the time; they were incredibly knowledgeable and pulled out all the stops. Their support for mothers who wanted to breastfeed was immaculate.

"what I do have is a set of over the top positives about certain practices"

If you think she's not giving you evidence based information then phone up the booking clerk who organised your course. She will report your concerns to the NCT.

"came away totally depressed by the short-shrift one woman was getting there simply because she said she used a cover in public! FFS!!"

I know the thread you mean. The one in which people were discussing the issue of women feeling ashamed about breastfeeding openly, and what this might imply about how breastfeeding is perceived culturally.

Actually I don't think this woman was personally criticised for wanting to cover up.

"The whole when do you stop thing is another minefield but I think most women who have been breastfeeding fo six months are capable of decising when to stop without Jo Frost's input."

Hmmm I'm not so sure. The generally held 'goal' for BFing is 6 months - feeding beyond 6 months is seen as extended/weird/hippyish. Women do feel a certain amount of pressure to stop at that point. I was asked how long I planned to BF for just after DS was born so I said until he was ready to give up. The MW then asked me if I planned to continue beyond 6 months. Clearly my answer to that was yes because I'd done a fair amount of research but to a mother who hadn't that could well be interpreted as most babies are ready to give up at 6 months.

choccie if you have problems with BFing don't write off the boards - there are a number of exceptionally patient and well informed posters on there, notably tiktok, and reading other people's threads looking for advice can be invaluable as well. I've been known to PM people who seemed to have good, sound advice rather than post a public question and they didn't seem to mind, I know I would rather someone randomly PMed me on the basis of something I'd said than struggle and give up.

"I was just challenging the suggestion earlier on the thread that this sort of thing doesn't happen"

Individuals say and do stupid things.

My argument is that there is no sanctioned and deliberate strategy to make ff mothers feel bad when it comes to breastfeeding promotion. Which is why it's very hard, if not impossible to find published materials produced by respectable bodies which demonstrate this intention.

chocciechip

I'm not sure if it was the same thread, but I recall a thread where a poster did NOT get short shrift for covering up whilst breastfeeding. In fact she was supported in her choices to be discreet.

She got short shrift for telling everyone else THEY should cover up LIKE HER and for accusing other breastfeeding mothers of grandstanding because they dared to feed publically.

Was that the thread you meant?

"Their support for mothers who wanted to breastfeed was immaculate"

You do wonder what's happened to some midwives though - that they can be so insensitive to vulnerable new mothers. It's like they've had a compassion by-pass or something.

Yes friends of mine have experienced that when choosing to ff feed too. And it's a shame. And what's interesting is the breast is best message is getting through but it isn't translating into behaviour, well not in Glasgow anyway.

I had to fight to breastfeed DD1 in special care and was eventually shown by a lovely intensive care nurse. Another nurse also stood up to the midwives and I was granted a room on the SCBU ward with DD1 (i was very lucky indeed) And Dd1 was given formula as routine as the beginning.

spudulika Tue 12-Jul-11 12:43:05
""I was just challenging the suggestion earlier on the thread that this sort of thing doesn't happen"

Individuals say and do stupid things."

Sorry I thought I made it clear: this was not a one-off remark but a regular routine in the hospital for the breastfeeding nurse to come round and question new mothers. It was part of the hospital's breast-feeding promotion programme. I am sure they meant well and perhaps it did work for some, but it was a little in-your-face tbh. Particularly as you don't get a lot of privacy on those wards, so you ended up justifying your choices not just to the nurse but to anyone else who happened to be on the ward at the time.

A friend, who bottlefed from the outset experienced a midwife entering a ward and picking up her baby and sitting down to feed the baby with a bottle without even asking or acknowledging the new mother.

How bloody awful

"And what's interesting is the breast is best message is getting through but it isn't translating into behaviour, well not in Glasgow anyway"

I think it's a big old dogs dinner actually.

When something is a really deep-rooted cultural practice - as bottlefeeding is in come social settings, it's very difficult to change.

Information won't do it. Hence the back-lash against breastfeeding advocacy. But the information still has to be given. I don't think it's right to let commercial interests have the whole playing field to themselves on this one.

Very little on risks on all the 'natural options' and zero positives on anything faintly medical. The table covered with statements on the 'pain relief' options was hilarious - I would actually class it as scaremongering. Not ONE positive statement about pain relief.

I have already been told I am at a higher risk of hemorrhaging with childbirth so the heavy information on how 'most' women feel desperately ill having the injection at third stage of delivery was fairly annoying. The worst bit was when she said that most women from her classes who had the jab told her 'all the vomiting ruined their first hours of their babies life'. You can imagine how that sank into MY consciousness. I had to specifically ASK if women who felt ill were provided with anti-nausea meds, and only then did she acknowledge that this was the case. I also had to ask if EVERYONE vomited their guts out, and only then did she acknowledge it varied from woman to women. I have since asked all my friends, who are a bit at her statements and not one of them said they had issues with massive vomiting. DH still in a state of anxiety I might refuse the jab given what we've been told, based on her comments. I think withholding some bits of information is frankly unhelpful, but I can see why she did: it doesn't really help her key objective, which in this case, was to persuade women in the class to opt out of having the injection as opposed to giving them information where they could choose to have it but also have extra information to mitigate the risks. I have no idea why it matters to her what other women choose to do?

On the BF thread - I am very sure it was because she covered up. LOTS of comment on how she shouldn't 'allow society to dictate to her' and comments between others discussing her choice on how breastfeeding was natural and 'such a shame' some women couldn't stand up to public views. Really sickend me with how patronising it was. I read all that crap knowing I have a horrible scar from a surgical procedure on one of my breasts and knowing there is no way in hell I am letting anyone publically see my body. I don't see why I should have to justify this choice though. That sort of judgement from women is just as likely to make me hide away at home to feed my child as are 'society's' disapproving looks at me from some if I do so in public. I left the thread thinking I'm damned if I cover up in public, and I'm damned if I don't. Best to stay home. It has fuck all to do with me being a 'passive powerless women' - which was the clear inference over pages of the thread - and everything to do with me knowing what I do and do not want.

The gods honest truth is that I am far more negatively affected by this kind of judgemental crap than I am by an 'anti BF society'. I despise women who bring down other women and sit in judgement. The irony is I want to breastfeed, but I've already made up my mind that I'm going to have to figure it out on my own rather than expose myself to that sort of bullshit which is just intolerable. Seems to me to be a bit of an own goal from the pro BF'ders on the thread.

I think it's a big old dogs dinner actually

Well on that you and I agree Spud.