to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

[allegrageller]

agreed, Starchart. Almost all my students have to work (middle-ranking university in South East). Those who are broke and struggling often find their work is affected. The (rather smug) person up thread who got lots of loans, felt flush and got a first is unusual.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

Obviously been reading the same threads as me:

don't breed
thank god the sink estates not next to my leafy suburb
I went to uni you know, why didn't you
No regard that some people are sitting on their lazy arses having never claimed benefits nor worked a day in their lives
Chav/Chavs/Chavy
Poverty
Everyone should just work a bit harder and have some asperations

blah blah blah, best one to date, have kids to get a big council house. I really would say to anyone who makse comments about benefits claimants get your fucking facts straight instead of watching channel 4 documentaries.

[Starchart]

'The (rather smug) person up thread who got lots of loans, felt flush and got a first is unusual'

And probably had more support than she realised. She probably STARTED universty with a wardrobe of clothes. Her parents probably bought her the odd weekly shop. She probably got money for her birthday and probably had a computer to take with her. She had probably had some life experiences that made it possible for her to get a job that paid a sensible wage and gave her sensible hours.

I don't doubt that she worked hard too, of course.

[catgirl1976]

When I went to University, I had to pay tuition fees up front. The only funding was a loan which didnt cover my fees, let alone my accomodation etc. I stil managed. I worked and I got an overdraft. I did not buy a computer, I used the library. University is more accesible now as tuition fees do not have to be paid up front.

[hester]

YANBU. It's particularly evident in threads on tax and private education.

[A1980]

University is more accesible now as tuition fees do not have to be paid up front.

But if people were aware of the aftermath they would realise that it is perhaps prohibitively expensive but you don't realise until you leave.

I paid tution fees for my degree and then had to fund law school my self as my TC provider didn't provide funding. Then when i started as a trainee solicitor on law society minimum in a legal aid firm, I realsied that with loan reapyments I would earn more by the hour if i worked as a cleaner. Even after I qualifed the debt repayments were so high that it was barely worth it. It's got more managemable now but at the time, it was very hard to live that way for several years.

[mamamila]

before i read the thread and become tainted by evidence i'd like to say YANBU to observe that this is definitely the belief of a lot of successful people. but people is only human no?
it does rankle though.
without doubt people who have worked hard will be proud of their efforts but on a level playing field any other person would probably also work as hard given the opportunity.
i have a pet hate about anti 'benefit scroungers' and their ilk. their blindness to the facts of how its nigh impossible to get your hands on a secure minimum wage job in many areas of this country, especially when you're already bottom of the pile.
i always say 'open a factory at the corner of every estate and see how quickly a queue for jobs forms'..anyway that's probably a whole other thread..shall read this one first

[bibbitybobbityhat]

But op, don't you find the incredibly well paid people in your acquaintance to be a little bit on the dull side? Let them be smug, let them all out-smug themselves at the golf club and on their holidays in their second homes in France and at the playground gates of St Saviours.

[mamamila]

everything you need to know on uni tuition fees/ loans/ repayments

[EggyAllenPoe]

i know a good few people who are testament to the fact that, however good a start in life you get, you still have to work hard to hang on to that advantage. (in terms of personal earnings anyway)

personally i have a second-rate job because although i work hard, i don't really care enough about earning more mony to make it all happen. Lacking some of the confidence/ opportunities of my wealthier friends didn't help - but even now there are opportunities...i just don't really want them enough.

[Fifis25StottieCakes]

Eggy makes a good point, some people cant stand the pressure in a well paid job. They take jobs which fit around their circumstances. I had a well paid job which i jacked in. I done this to take a cleaning job on an evening whilst OH worked through the day. Not everyone wants a well paid job. They want a job they are happy in. I was making myself ill commuting everyday and doing nursery runs and not seeing the kids. Believe it or not i was happy as larry doing my little cleaning job

On here though i probably wasnt aiming high enough to reach my potential.

[edam]

My mother's generation, born immediately after WW2, were ruddy lucky - the beneficiaries of a welfare state that gave them proper medical care and free education including university, as well as what we'd now describe as cheap housing (and full employment around the time my parents graduated). Many had jobs for life if they wanted them, as well. (Although not the poor sods who worked in heavy industry.)

However, those of my generation who went to university were comparatively lucky in that we didn't have to pay - or even got grants - so didn't start life burdened with debts. We have lived through three or four recessions and increasing job insecurity, though.

I feel really sorry for young people starting out today, burdened with debt, joblessness and insecurity once you manage to find a ruddy job AND a vicious combination of ridiculous house prices and rents.

[bibbitybobbityhat]

Plenty of people just aren't bothered about earning shed loads of money.

[Tchootnika]

OP - I don't know if you've already done so, or if someone's already suggested this (or if it'll wind you up even more), but have a look at the barristers thread... a surprising number of very hardworking people who've had a shitty professional life.
(Just thought this might make you feel better? )

[Tortington]

darling, shush shush...we can't have an uprising

[AuntyChrist]

Perhaps I missed it, but it doesn't seem anyone has posted about the importance of talent and/or innate intellect (as opposed to what can be learned at school). For instance, I could "work hard" all I wanted, but being super-short and with two left feet, I'm never going to play professional basketball. There are plenty of people in the world who busted their arses to get into a chosen vocation/art/prof. career, and just don't have what it takes. You may not have the analytical and study skills for med school, the quick mind and strong stomach for law school, the vision to be a sculptor, the social adeptness for networking, what have you.

Also sometimes I wonder if all the people who begrudge others their success, while intelligent, lack the "soft skills" that make success in almost every field so valuable. How many of us know someone who's bright and has a lot to offer, but who also doesn't present themselves well, hold up under stress or conflict, deal effectively with authority figures, etc.

And by the way, as far as the Malcolm Gladwell book goes, think about it, if 'Outliers' thesis had been that successful people work hard with the talent they already have, and are not just average, industrious folks, the book wouldn't have sold very well, would it have?

[Goodynuff]

I can see this from both sides.
My husband and I started life on a bottom rung. He was raised by a single father (from the age of 2) without much money. He suffered horrific abuse by a babysitter, ended up in a group home, then foster care, before returning to live with his father (who is a lovely man, just to be clear). He left home at 18, with no money, and no prospects.
I was raised by a mentally ill mother, and an abusive (in all ways) father. I was put into care 9 times before I left home at 15, with 30$ to my name.
Statistically, not great odds of success.
We had a child at 19, married at 20, and had another at 21.
We worked shit jobs, often for 12 or 13 hours a day, to make ends meet. We live in a city with less than 0.5% rental market. That means it is a major struggle to find housing that is affordable, and safe.
We put ourselves through university through loans, no help from any family. We were able to make ends meet, but just barely. Eventually, we managed to get into subsidized housing. That was good luck, as the wait list is around 2 years.
We looked around, and realized that our lot was never going to improve if we didn't make some major changes.
DH signed up with the Canadian Forces. He was willing to work damn hard, leave his family for over a year, to be able to get ahead. It was hard work that got him through, not luck. He is now in a position earning 25% more than he did a year ago. He has job security, an oppertunity to have health insurance and dental care for the family, oppertunities to progress up the career ladder, and a pension to boot.
It means we will have to move thousands of miles away from our family and friends. This is going to be hard starting over, with a teenaged daughter, a son with AS, me with depression, and knowing no one. It will be worth the sacrifice to have a better life.
We didn't start out with oppertunities, but we are wiling to work hard to get them. Having a better life now will not negate the hard work, stressful jobs, and rough times we have come through. At the same time, I know that life can turn on a dime, and someday we might find ourselves having to start all over again.
Phew, that was an essay! Sorry so long!

[catgirl1976]

A student from a low income background will get fees paid, a grant of around £3.5k and a loan of £5k. Thats £8.5k tax free without working. It is probably more than some low earners take home after tax.

A degree is no guarantee of a good job though

[Tchootnika]

catgirl, where are you getting that info from?

[Starchart]

Goodynuff

Thank you for sharing that story. It's inspirational and I hope you are happy in your new life. You should both be bloody proud of yourselves for what you have achieved.

However, are you not a bit resentful of those people who whilst they worked hard, didn't have to work 12-13 hours a day to make ends meet, who could afford a home without restricting the heating in winter, who had more supportive parents and opportunities for free childcare etc.?

I'm not saying those people didn't work hard, but it's a bit unfair isn't it?

Having said that I admire you for not dwelling on the unfairness and giving in the face of it which some people do.

[Goodynuff]

Starchart Sometimes it is hard not to be bitter.
A close friend of ours always had job security working for his parents, with no need to go to university. He would bugger off for days on a bender, knowing when he came back, he would still have a job. When his parents sold their business, they paid for him to be trained to get another high paid job. When he got married, they paid for his wedding. When he needed a vehicle, they bought him one, and paid for his fuel costs for the first five years. When he wanted a house, they co-signed, and paid his downpayment.

Then he kept asking us, why didn't we get a sweet SUV like his? He advised us that we better get on the propety ladder quick if we wanted to make any real money at it. He wondered why we didn't want to fly to Jamaica for a few weeks with him....
We don't hang out anymore!
At the same time, I know we have had good luck. Our son could have have much worse special needs. Our daughter could have been been resentful about not having all the things her friends did,and be badly behaved. My depression could have got worse, instead of easing off. I could have got cancer...
Feeling bad about someone else succeeding is just as ineffectual as feeling bad about someone else's plight. It just wont accomplish anything.

[JoySzasz]

YANBU at all. op

I have noticed the same attitude on some threads recently.

[MsAnnThroppy]

: 0 points

[catgirl1976]

Tchoonika from here:

www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/UniversityAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/Gettingstarted/DG_171573