to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

[janey68]

Wow, mahoosive generalisation there!

There are numerous factors involved, so of course its daft to say everyone in a highly paid job works exceptionally hard and everyone who isn't, doesn't! However, its a plain fact that certain factors will increase your chances of achieving a good job- eg qualifications, not giving up work when you have children, being prepared to move locations to gain promotions. It's just as insulting to suggest that success is only down to luck as it is to suggest its purely down to whoever works hardest

[mumblechum1]

PernicketyPag

[Goblinchild]

Between the ages of 30 and 50. Yes it's a lot. I've lost other friends for other reasons, but I wonder how my DS would cope without me, and want to stay lucky for the next decade.

[Pagwatch]

Ok.
But penisheadpag would be equally accurate

[spamm]

I agree with you, to a certain extent. There is some luck in there, and also being brought up by parents that can give you the opportunities - in my case, not with money, but with encouragement and work ethic. But I certainly believe luck is not enough, you need to work hard and be brave enough to make the right decisions.

[MissBetsyTrotwood]

I've not witnessed it on here but FIL is a prime example of the sort of person you talk about. He is lucky. He's always had excellent health and stamina despite being a heavy drinker and eater at points in his life. He married a wonderful woman who has supported and backed him for about 50 years. He entered into, moved up in his chosen career and retired at very lucky times. Yet never ceases to tell us it is ALL his work that got him where he is. He forgets about all the other things that surround this success and all the things that he's been lucky to escape.

My mum lost her sister at 21, her father at 35 and her husband at 45, all in traumatic circumstances. Then she got cancer, probably as a result of all the hard work and coping these losses left her with. Her 'hard work' was just holding the family and herself together and getting by financially - no time for a well paying career.

[Ormirian]

Anyone who refuses to countenance the effects of chance circumstance on their lives is asking to be shown the error of the their ways IMO. Of course the way some poeple are able to bounce back may be down to effort and resilience but that isn't a question of hard work as such.

[fit2drop]

I don't think its smugness(I haven't seen it, not re the OP generalisation anyway)
However I have seen pride, I am immensely proud of myself for being able to secure what I feel for me is the " best job ever" and I was over 50 when I got it after years of "hand to mouth " work, doing whatever was available when I could. I have had times when I had to be on benefits and times when I took three jobs just to make ends meet so I have served my apprenticeship and have been on both sides of the fence. I hope I have every right to be proud of achieving what I have.But whichever job I had I always worked hard and gave my best no matter what the salary was.
What does irk me though is people who say "oh its alright for you, you have a job, you don't have kids at home , you have it easy"
I have earned where I am by right of passage and yes maybe a bit of luck too.
My late parents instilled in me a sense of if you want it, you have to earn it, so there was a massive struggle when as a single parent to four I was determined my kids would not be (and never were) latch key kids so any work I took revolved round school hours and their bedtimes. Usually the lower paid types of jobs and reliance on favour babysitters.
My children learned from a very young age that if they wanted the latest trend they had to earn it, babysitting, paper rounds etc, My son made quite a lucrative career out of car washing down the poshest longest avenue in my town . = bigger , 2 car families

I agree very much with mumblechum1 its very much in the nature of the individual.
Circumstances , fate whatever can change things dramatically for anyone .
So I think OP is bvu in generalising and maybe mistaking pride for smugness.

[catgirl1976]

I havent seen a sinlge well paid person on here not say that yes - they have had some good luck

[Loshad]

sitting on the fence here - i am very lucky because we could afford for me to retrain as a teacher (on half previous salary, and i love it). I do genuinely wake up in the mornings and think how lucky i am (4 healthy kids etc) but Dh came from a sht background - parents unemployed and didn't give a fk about education, or anything else (like regular meals, making him go to school). He did work really hard - sec mod, job, fe college, med school, etc etc. He is neither ruthless, nor greedy or any other awful personality trait - he has consistently worked really really* hard, and has been rewarded by that - he has a good job, is well paid and enjoys it, but the only luck he has is the natural imbuing of the desire to work hard - nothing else.

[proudfoot]

goinggetstough

"Proudfoot university will be very expensive as although the fees don't need to be paid up front many DC will only receive a maintenance loan and these often don't cover hall fees, books and basic living expenses."

Yes I know. I went to university not so long ago myself and received only the minimum loan of about 3k per year. My loan did not cover my accommodation costs so I took an overdraft and worked alongside my studies. It was perfectly fine. I still got a 1st from one of the top universities.

Students from "disadvantaged" backgrounds actually get loads of extra money at university so once they are there they actually have more money than most.

Some people genuinely do have bad luck e.g. they become seriously ill, but so many just rely on sob stories and weak excuses.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Oh what a load of bollocks. The easiest job where I did the least work paid me £50 an hour for pissing about on the Internet ten years ago. Fake, stupid IT job before the bubble burst.

My ex sits in an office as an accountant and gets paid £250,000 a year to do 9-5 with no stress, no weekend working. He had a crappy business studies degree from a polytechnic.

And the hardest job I ever had was £3 working in a bakers, up at 4am - worked ten hours with neither break nor a piss (we weren't allowed water in case we needed the loo)

It's mostly luck, being able to take opportunities, having money and someone to catch you behind you, or willingness to take personal risk.

Circumstance and poverty prevent this. A few get out of that - I'm one of them - but you should ignore that very small group as the most important statistic is that the GAP between rich and poor is at it's greatest.


And will only get wider under the Tories.

[MissBetsyTrotwood]

Ormirian - what an well written, concise post.

[MissBetsyTrotwood]

Ha ha. a

[A1980]

I have genuinely never noticed job smugness here.

There are people here from all walks of life including lawyers and doctors and I don't notice job smugness from them. They are generally the ones (doctors particularly) who did get where they are becasue they worked bloody hard for it.

[Starchart]

If you work hard, you'll do better with the luck you are given!

[porpoisefull]

"It's just as insulting to suggest that success is only down to luck as it is to suggest its purely down to whoever works hardest" But the OP wasn't saying that success is only down to luck, just that those with high-paid jobs can't assume that those without simply haven't worked hard enough.

I think the issues underlying this thread are about a lot more than "are some posters on MN smug". It's about the structure of society. How much tax do we ask the rich and well-paid to contribute to support those less well-off? What is a fair wage for lowly jobs that we need someone to do to keep society functioning? Surely the essence of the right-wing view of the world is to discount luck almost entirely as a force in people's lives, therefore it can be seen as morally justifiable to reduce state support for the less well off.

"The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate; God made them high or lowly and ordered their estate" That's a verse of All Things Bright and Beautiful that doesn't tend to get sung any more.

[A1980]

Anyone who refuses to countenance the effects of chance circumstance on their lives is asking to be shown the error of the their ways IMO.

However this is also true. The book smarts will get you through the exams but when i got my job (solicitor), there was an huge element of chance in it. I was in the right place at the right time and got lucky. I don't know how the job market works for doctors though.

[catgirl1976]

Curious as to what people percvieve to be a well paid job. I imagine there would be some difference in perpsective.

[tethersend]

There's smugness on this very thread for those who've never seen any

[catgirl1976]

Haven't seen any

[mumblechum1]

"How much tax do we ask the well paid to contribute to those less well-off?"

Up to 50% last time I looked (disclaimer - I don't earn £150k pa )

[Starchart]

'Going to university is not prohibitively expensive. You need absolutely no cash upfront at all.'

That's complete bollocks. Have you done the maths? When you have borrowed every penny available to you, it still isn't enough to live on.

Certainly not enough to buy a computer, transport, cooking equipment and all the things you would need to set up home. Most accomodation for rent do not allow term time only rents so you have to pay for the whole year and lots of universities charge additional fees for things like 'photocopying'.

You simply cannot go to university if you don't have a financial supply coming from somewhere. And before you say 'get a job', depending on the competition from other students, you'll be lucky to a)get one and b)get one that pays enough to manage.

[Starchart]

'People from low income households can get additional loans and grants'

This is bollox too. Access funds usually have to be spread so thinly that once you have PROVEN poverty and given a figure of how much you need to SURVIVE, you might get, if you are lucky, a small percentage of that (no idea where they imagine the rest to come from).

[potterschmotter]

or do a degree part time