to think a lot of posters here believe the ONLY reason they are in a well paid is because they worked so much harder than anyone else and good luck and favourable circumstances had NO BEARING AT ALL

[ssd]

GOD there are some amount of smug posters here who seem to believe they are so far above the rest of us lowly workers, they can't stop telling us how hard they have worked, how academic they are etc etc and if you're not, well really you probably claim benefits and expect the system to help you out with your crap paid job

well guess what folks, some of us are in crap paid jobs due to unforeseen life events, not because we spent years at school studying and trying hard so we could earn minimum wage and be lectured to by people who don't have to compromise all their bloody lives

[catgirl1976]

May I ask what industry you are in potter? If your degree is vocational I can understand it will help with promotion opportunities, but the majority of degrees taken these days are not.

[porcupine11]

goinggetstough - I sort of disagree. For example, my family has suffered all manner of family crises over the decades, and at no point did I (or my mother) 'slack off'. It's always under your control to some extent. I think it has a great deal to do with attitude to unforseen events - the tenacity to cope with the tough times, and also to seize opportunities and luck when it comes along. Therefore it is more than luck alone.

I agree with the OP that people who are pleased with their situation probably emphasize the 'hard work' aspect of their past, but conversely, do the 'hard up' emphasize the lack of lucky breaks? To present a balanced view you'd have to write an autobiography, not a series of mumsnet posts!

[potterschmotter]

it is vocational kind of youth work, not early years.

[northerngirl41]

I'm in agreement with the general consensus that some people are lucky and some people are lazy... And that most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Having said that, I also think that those who are hard workers/educated/organised tend to deal better when life throws us a curveball than those who are not inclined to be that way... So perhaps having an unfortunate event doesn't affect them as much as another person.

[eurochick]

I haven't seen this smugness on MN.

I am fortunate to be financially secure and I believe that I got there through a combination of hard work (still ongoing - I am posting this while amending a document that I probably won't finish until 10pm tonight) and luck. At university I grafted and missed many fun nights out as a result. This continued through my 20s and early 30s. I was also in the right place at the right time when I got my "big break" job. I also lived on a pittance at university when many of my schoolfriends were rolling in money from jobs.

But I have had my share of bad luck as well - just as I qualified as a barrister, my chambers broke up. A few years ago, I joined a new law firm that basically didn't have enough work to support a new person by the time I got there (some cases had fallen through) and I ended up without a job in my early 30s, when I had a mortgage, etc and it took me several very stressful months to find an alternative.

My parents also grafted like crazy and took risks to give their family a comfortable existence. I think hard work plays a huge part, but luck is in the mix too.

[catgirl1976]

im in agreement with the general consensus that some people are lucky and some people are lazy.

Some people are harworking and lucky. Some people are lazy and lucky. Some people are hardworking and unlucky. Some people are lazy and unlucky.
You can't generalise like that!

[mumblechum1]

Agree with NorthernLurker. I've always worked, even with a severely brain damaged child, and whilst suffering from cancer and right through chemotherapy because I'm just naturally a robust, can-do person. Others feel that having a disabled child (even not v severely disabled) means they have to throw in the towel so far as work is concerned.

So it's not just the circumstances themselves, but the way the individual responds which is the real test.

[Pixieonabroomstick]

My mum does this. She has a nice house , has now retired etc etc but thinks it because she works so so hard and it wasnt to do with luck.
she wont have it when i point out some people eg. Care assistants work very hard but dont earn much.

[edam]

Northern - not sure I entirely agree. Very dogmatic people who are very certain that everyone else should live life THEIR way are sometimes not terribly good at coping with the unexpected. They've lived their life in the certainty of x, y or z and when that crumbles, they crumble too. (And perfectly reasonable people crumble sometimes, of course.)

I have a theory that there's a big difference between people who read a lot of fiction as children and those who didn't. Those who did have early training in putting themselves in someone else's shoes and imagining what the world would be like if you lived in different conditions. I suspect the readers in general have developed more of a capacity for empathy.

[Pagwatch]

I am not sure that weighing circumstances and determining that life would be easier for all five members of my family if I stopped working at my career is exactly 'throwing the towel in'.

[houseelfheave]

I have a well paid job. I've worked hard to get to where I am and have to work hard to maintain it. I've not come across anyone who has a well paid job, but doesn't work hard. They kind of go hand in hand.

That doesn't mean that I think anyone without a well paid job doesn't work hard. The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can work hard in a job that doesn't pay well, or can have worked hard all of your life, but personal circumstances mean that things haven't worked out for you.

OP- Not everyone who has a well paid job has just been lucky in the same way that no everyone in a low paid job hasn't worked hard. So for that sweeping generalisation alone YABVU.

[catgirl1976]

have to say I still haven't seen any smugness so I am going to say YABVU.

[MoreBeta]

Pixie - people like your Mum and my parents had a huge stroke of luck in their lives entirely due to the fact they were born late enough to miss WWII but young enough to enjoy a full and very generous welfare state as well as huge and unprecedented housing boom. Both factors had nothing to do with their hard work and will not happen again.

[TableVamp]

The harder I work, the luckier I get ;)

[tethersend]

ssd- YANBU at all and I love you a little bit for starting this thread.

A capitalist society depends on there being people at the bottom. If it were as easy as working hard = money and success, society would collapse overnight, as everyone would do it.

It's a fucking lottery.

Of course, scores of people who have worked very hard for what they have take this to mean that people are saying they haven't. I'm not. Of course they have worked hard- but for every one of them, there are a hundred hard workers who don't have what they have. There is simply only a few places at the top for people to work their way up from the bottom; but of course, we must hold these people up as shining examples to others at the bottom of what can be achieved through hard work so they continue to work hard and keep society functioning.

[Goblinchild]

I've worked hard, and still do.
I've been lucky, I have lost 4 friends to cancer in the last 18 months.
All of them had children younger than mine.

[mumblechum1]

Pag, I wasn't getting at you, at all, in your circs you clearly did the right thing, and your family can afford for you to be a SAHM.

I think I worded my post a bit clumsily; what I mean to say really is that some peoples' makeup and circumstances mean that they will carry on regardless where others' just find it impossible.

[ThisIsANiceCage]

Blimey, Goblinchild, so very sorry to hear that.

[mumblechum1]

Goblinchild, that's a hell of a lot of young mums to die in 18 months.

[tethersend]

Goblin- 4 friends?

[MoreBeta]

It is true to say that for any given set of life events the person who works harder will be wealthier. However, at the extreme, if I had lived on benefits all my life and won the Euromillions next week I would be hundreds if not thousands of times richer than the average person who works hard. Life has a habit of making some people unjustly well off and others unjustly poor no matter how much or little work they do.

[Pagwatch]

Oh ignore me mumble chum.
I think I get what you were trying to say.
I posted in a pernickety manner.
Sorry.

[allegrageller]

agree entirely with MoreBeta. A lot of the smugness (not particularly on here, although there is some) in society I hear coming from baby boomers who have really had the lot and are still sitting on most of the property. If you were born in 1948 (like my mum) you have had a quality of life and opportunity that will never come again. She always moans her head off about her terrible life, anyway :-D

btw 'good academics' does not mean money, indeed the opposite, as any academic can tell you.

This society rewards ownership, full stop. I am afraid it also rewards ruthlessness and greed as well as 'charisma', risk-taking, and various other 'business-friendly' qualities. If you own things or come to own them, you will do well and will be able to make other people do crappy jobs for you. If you don't, then increasingly you are a bit f**ed. Not in my opinion all that much to do with hard work. Some of the hardest workers you will ever meet stay right at the bottom because the bosses know they will AGREE to stay there.

[BrianAndHisBalls]

isn't it about the responsibility level of a job though? So a cleaner might work as hard as a surgeon (for instance) but the surgeon has a lot more responsibility whereas the cleaner can leave their job at the end of their shift? Obviously that doesn't work with footballers though.

Its not about knowing people all the time either, I didn't have any introductions and am in a well paid job, my brother is in an extremely well paid job and also didn't have any introductions.

Seem to be people making assumptions on both sides of this debate