to not want a teenage boy telling me abortion is a sin and should never be legalised?!

[ThisMomentusDay]

I never really know how to feel about abortion, i don't think i could ever have one but thankfully i've never been in a position to have to consider this so it's a very easy thing to say isn't it?
As such i'm very much sitting on the 'pro-choice' fence!
It's such a personal choice for a woman and not usually one taken lightly.

Yesterday on the street there was a stall set up with a petition to the Taoiseach (PM) to not have any sort of a referendum on legalising abortion in Ireland. Fair enough i thought, freedom of speech, right to protest etc.
Untill i was passing and a teenage boy below the voting age (and possibly the age of consent) tries to hand me the leaflets. I looked across the street and on the 4 corners of this junction there are teenage boys handing anti-abortion leaflets out to (mainly) women!

It really annoyed me, (especially as it was very obviously a catholic group and i think the church has done enough damage to the state and should stay the hell out of politics) but i just refused the leaflets and kept walking.

AIBU to have thought 'what the hell has it got to do with you?'

"Ireland has liberal laws on homosexuality. Afaik that's not in line with RC teaching. "

Are you taking the piss?

Compared to what, Jamaica, where it's illegal and gay people are frequently murdered? Or Uganda, which recently considered imposing the death penalty?

Mind boggling.

I would think that Ireland would be breaking many international laws if it didn't have a "liberal" approach to homosexuality. WTF is even meant by a "liberal" approach? Not persecuting and imprisoning? Well whopp de fucking doo how advanced.

Seriously I'm not sure I can engage with this nonsense.

"People are free to make up their own minds and the ballot box is private. "

These boys were campaigning to stop any referendum on abortion, now or in the future. How does that tie in with the ballot box comment.

Honestly this is getting silly now.

From here

"Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993".

Wow how unbelievably liberal. I would have thought the European Convention of human rights might have had a problem with that particular law continuing...

The ldea that the prohibition on abortion in Ireland has nothing to do with that country's catholic background is preposterous. Sorry, but seriously, come on.

I think whether there should be a referendum depends on the level of public debate that exists surrounding the issue. I don't live in Ireland and frankly have no idea how much it is discussed.

Sardine your last post ties neatly into my earlier point that Irish society, in particular it's views on issues of sexual morality, has changed in the last decade or more . The influence of the RC Church has waned. But still the argument is trotted out that people only oppose abortion on religious grounds.

With regards to homosexuality and to avoid going further off topic I will quickly refer you to the font of all knowledge
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

which summarizes the progress of legal and public opinion.

elliephant - are there any countries where abortion is illegal and are not a religious country? Genuniely want to know as I really don't think there will be.

Sardine I agree with youto a point. Religion has had an influence. But it is no longer the only influence and not the dominant influence on issues of morality.

BTW it is incorrect to state the Youth Defence are happy with the legal status quo on abortion and are opposed to a referendum. They are probably the most vocal in keeping the call for a referendum on the agenda. There is very little appetite for a referendum among the general population, polity and media.

'YD are working to obtain a properly worded referendum which will establish full protection for unborn children from the moment of conception. We reject the undemocratic proposal of abortion legislation which can only provide for some form of legal abortion.'

www.youthdefence.ie/who-we-are/aims-and-objectives/

My last post on this ( have to run off to recite the rosary and dance around the crossroads )

I think this article is a still relevant summary of abortion in Ireland and is worth a read
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/23/ireland-abortion-women-rights

Makes me laugh when Catholics oppose abortion as if it's some moral crusade, what they've done to countries like Romania is the devil's work.....

Next time a Catholic group approaches you chatting about terminations tell them to look at the evil their own clergy have committed and still not brought to the criminal justice courts and to shut the fuck up.

Sorry just answering the OP.

"since when did we all have any right to shock, disgust and offend everyone in the name of freedom of expression? We don't. "

Sorry got my quote slightly wrong, it's the right to offend,shock and disturb rather than disgust. And we have it under article 10 of the ECHR protecting the fredom of expression.
From Handyside v UK 1980 expressed that it applies to all forms of expression, not just those that are faviurable or innnofensive to the population.
"...but also those that offend,shock or disturb the state or any sector of the population.Such are the demands of pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness without which there is no 'democratic' soceity" at para 48
It is also referneced as one of the fundamental pillars of democratic soceity elsewhere in the judgment.
Now this right can be restricted where it is prescribed by law,the restriction has a legitimate aim and is necessary in a democratic soceity.
However the ECHR will generally give greater levels of protection to different types of expression. Political speech has historically granted the highest level of protection, as they were protesting against any future referendum I'd imagine it'd easily come under political speech.

With regard to religous speech the ECHR will generally defer to the host nation as they consider them to be in a better position to judge what is acceptable in their soceity or culture.

As far as freedom of physical assembly under article 11 in Platform "arzte fur das Leben" (1991) the court found that a nation may have positive obligation to vindicate a protest groups rights even where they are counter to wider public opinion, in this particular case it was a protest by a group of anti-abortion doctors.

"Wow how unbelievably liberal. I would have thought the European Convention of human rights might have had a problem with that particular law continuing..."

It did, the decision in Senator Norris case was appealed to the ECHR who found that it contravened the Convention (i think this was 1984 but I may be a year out either side).
Unfortunately the ECtHR is a largely toothless organisation and held even less power back then. there was no obligation on Member States to enforce the judgments of the court so we just ignored it.

"I think whether there should be a referendum depends on the level of public debate that exists surrounding the issue. I don't live in Ireland and frankly have no idea how much it is discussed."

TBH there's not much debate because we have a nicely hypocritical stance where by we can have our cake and eat it. people get to pat themselves on the back and pretend that abortion isn't an issue in Ireland, and sure if it does become an issue you can just get the boat to England and deal with that nasty business over there.
So as I say it's just swept under the carpet and ignored, so not much public debate .

been hiding behind the computer chair reading some of these posts! :)

i know teenagers are entitled to their opinion but if a referendum was called within the next 2 years theirs wouldn't actually count! (one boy was def no more than 16 as i know he has an older brother who's just turned 17)

I guess i just find teenage boys protesting against abortion in this way a little unsettling, a bit like the marriage guidance courses run by catholic priests!

And mayorquimby i totally agree that the attitude to abortion here is very much 'we stopped it being illegal to go to the Uk what more do u want?'

In response to the question posed earlier 'WTF is even meant by a "liberal" approach?' may I argue that Ireland has liberal laws on Homosexuality?

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom") is the belief in the importance of liberty and equal rights

A liberal is favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

David Norris took his case in 1988 (he was represented by Mary Robinson) and same-sex sexual activity was decriminalised in 1993.

That was 26 years after the UK, 13 years after Scotland and 11 years after Northern Ireland. So not that significant a time difference given the religious and social conservatism and isolation of Irish society up until the late 1980's/ early 1990's.

Homosexuality in The UK and Ireland have similar legal standing.

Civil Partnership legislation has been fully enacted and implemented from the start of 2011. The same legislation was introduced in the UK in 2005.

A March 2011 The Sunday Times poll showed support for full civil marriage rights at 73%. Similar polls in the UK - the most recent I can find is 2009 - indicated that 61% would support same sex marriage.

The new Fine Gael-Labour government is committed to establish a Constitutional Convention to consider same-sex marriage among other things. The UK government has expressed its' intention to do the same.

Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is outlawed and The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989 outlaws incitement to hatred based on sexual orientation.

So in conclusion Ireland has

• introduced legislation, with wipespread support across all political parties (ie the representatives of the people) that supports liberty and equal rights -AKA liberalism

-the current government has committed itself top further progress and reform in the area of same sex marriage - AKA a Liberal approach

So we have a liberal approach by getting up to speed with everyone else years and even decades later? Unusual definition of the word liberal.

and totally agreeing with Sardine that any argument that Irelands abortion laws are not based on religious morality is preposterous, as well as naive, blinkered and any other word you care to add.

So we have a liberal approach by getting up to speed with everyone else years and even decades later? Unusual definition of the word liberal.

Surely equally as unusual a definition as defining our current approach based on what the approach used to be.

Well I wasn't the one giving the history lesson as an example of out liberal-ness. Our current approach is not liberal either. Liberal compared to who or what?
Laughable.

I think the argument that I have been trying to make, obviously not clearly enough, is that Irish morality is not defined by the Catholic, or C of I for that matter, teachings anymore. Historically it was.

There are many other significant influences at work today. If YD get their way and have another referendum the outcome of that vote will not be determined by the bishops.

Irish society has changed dramatically in the last 30 years, slowly at first and then at breakneck speed in the last 10 years or so. To suggest otherwise is a lazy and imo, offensive, stereotype that ignores the progress made .

In addition to this I very strongly support the right to the freedom of expression, regardless of age, gender, sexuality or religion. That is the cornerstone of civilization as is Freedom of thought.

Which leads us to tolerance because with rights come responsibilities. Unfortunately no matter how unpalatable you may find YD they are entitled to freedom of expression and of thought, as are you and I.

Mrs Teak it is liberal according to the definition of the word liberal.

Using UK laws as a familiar benchmark Irish laws are comparable. Later to the table, yes, for reasons well understood, but still valid,representative, enforceable and enforced.

It is also liberal compared to the aproximately 70 out of the 195 countries of the world (approximately 36%) where consensual homosexual acts between adults are illegal and in some cases punishable by death. In most of, probably all actually, of those countries freedom of speech and freedom of thought are also not respected.

Would it not have bothered you if it was a 35 year old woman with 5 children around her? TBH, no matter who it is, if they are protesting about something you don't agree with of course you are entitled to think "what a shower of idiots". But not worth dressing it up any more than that.

wow, liberal compared to Afghanistan and Iraq. You must be so proud!

There is no objective definition of the word liberal in regards to this, only comparably. I don't see it as liberal at all. I see it as a basic standard of decency that can be much improved, not liberal in the slightest. To eb liberal there must be a mid standard that is the norm, all you've done is found the opposite of liberal. Your arguments are confused and ill-shaped.

And, no, I don't agree that they are entitled to freedom of any expression they want, I think their offensive imagery should be confiscated as it does factually cause extreme offense and hurt to others.

MRS TEAK I am not quiet sure what you mean in your last posts.

I have posted with regards to Irish legislation on Homosexuality, defined and demonstrated that it is 'Liberal', and contrasted it to countries which outlaws homosexuality. I was not posting with regards to legislation on abortion.

My arguments on this subject are not confused or ill shaped so I will, if I may, assume that they have been misread.

Personally I am quiet thrilled not to be living in Afghanistan or Iraq or similar illiberal democracies or dictatorships. I am also quiet proud that in my lifetime considerable and peaceful social change has taken place here and more is on the way.

TBH - I think teenagers can be very "black n white" they don't have enough life experience to deal with these issues. They were being used as stooges in this instance.

The only people lealetting should be women (or men) that have had the decision to abort, or not, affect their lives.