to not want a teenage boy telling me abortion is a sin and should never be legalised?!

[ThisMomentusDay]

I never really know how to feel about abortion, i don't think i could ever have one but thankfully i've never been in a position to have to consider this so it's a very easy thing to say isn't it?
As such i'm very much sitting on the 'pro-choice' fence!
It's such a personal choice for a woman and not usually one taken lightly.

Yesterday on the street there was a stall set up with a petition to the Taoiseach (PM) to not have any sort of a referendum on legalising abortion in Ireland. Fair enough i thought, freedom of speech, right to protest etc.
Untill i was passing and a teenage boy below the voting age (and possibly the age of consent) tries to hand me the leaflets. I looked across the street and on the 4 corners of this junction there are teenage boys handing anti-abortion leaflets out to (mainly) women!

It really annoyed me, (especially as it was very obviously a catholic group and i think the church has done enough damage to the state and should stay the hell out of politics) but i just refused the leaflets and kept walking.

AIBU to have thought 'what the hell has it got to do with you?'

"Women not directly affected by rape?Who's getting raped then? "

which is why I was very specific to confine the analogy to custodial sentences for rape convictions and not anything to do with how rape cases are tried or convictions achieved.
Women will not serve a custodial sentence for rape in Ireland, therefore to use the logic earlier on which argued for the exclusion of mens opinion from debates surrounding abortion women should not be involved in any debate which relates specifically to custodial sentences for rape.
My point was to highlight the ridiculous and dangerous concept of excluding half the population from a political debate because one person decides that in their subjective opinion that said gender is not directly affected by the issue at hand.

Ah yes forgot OP was in ireland my bad

But given that OP didnt mentioned a specific age just that they looked under the age of consent my point was more that even if they werent of consenting age or actively having sex they would be of an age where issues are raised.

Unless they are married they shouldn't be having sex at all.

MQ but you think it is fine for a bunch of men in the Vatican to decide what women may or may not do with their own bodies, and completely exclude women from the debate.

Interesting.

Well quite, catgirl.

(not my view obvs - but clearly theirs)

"MQ but you think it is fine for a bunch of men in the Vatican to decide what women may or may not do with their own bodies, and completely exclude women from the debate."

No where have I said that?
The vatican can discuss wtf they like and exclude who they want within their religion because it's a closed shop, but no government should give a flying fuck what they think nor have I said anywhere that the vatican should control the political debate or set the terms upon which the issue is debated.

"The vatican can discuss wtf they like and exclude who they want within their religion because it's a closed shop, but no government should give a flying fuck what they think"

But this is in Ireland. You are in Ireland. And so know damn well that the state and church are inextricably interwoven.

Abortion is illegal in Ireland because it is a religious country. A RC country. A country where the church historically and even now and despite all the scandals holds an enormous amount of power.

The anti-abortion stance is a direct consequence of the anti-abortion stance of the church. ie a bunch of men in the Vatican.

Yet the idea that women should be able to discuss this issue without men chipping in (ITKK specified "Male MPs, priests, editorial writers etc") is anathema.

I understood your point. But as I said, its a bad one. Men may only ever be indirectly affected by abortion, women are directly affected by rape. Offensive analogy.

Men can debate it all the fuck they like, however the only person who decides what happens within my body should be a woman. Specifically this woman.

Have to agree to disgaree so. I don't think it's offensive, but it's unlikely either of us will change our opinion so best leave it at that.

I think the idea that Ireland its' population is still in thrall to the RC Church to be at least 10 years out of date.

The influence of the Church on moral issues has declined and continues to do so. Catholicism is an a la carte affair for many who might tick the box on the cenus form.

"I think the idea that Ireland its' population is still in thrall to the RC Church to be at least 10 years out of date."

I'd agree completely. Incidents such as the Ferns have completely had such a huge influence on how issues such as church and state are viewed by the population.

yes I'd agree with that, but, and its a big but, the morals and norms that come from a catholic upbringing and schooling are hard to shake off. It is a fact that when the public are questioned about changing the laws on abortion, many people are still against it. Less all the time I think, but still, it takes more than a few years and a few scandals to shake off the less obvious remnants of state religion.

We are talking about the abortion law here - which was not passed yesterday, or a decade ago. And certainly dates to a time when the population were "in thrall" to the church (if that is the way that people really want to describe it). It is only very recently that the state has been forced to look seriously at the level of influence the church has had on the government, police and other institutions.

Saying "oh Ireland has moved on recently " when discussing the ban on abortion is nonsensical IMO.

Genuine Q here, interested in others opinions -

There is an assumption that most people who hold anti abortion sentiments do so because of their Catholic upbringing.

However given that many of the RC church's teaching are taught and ignored ( divorce, contraception , practising homosexuality for example) could it be that some people continue to find abortion unexceptable because of their own personal morality?

Certainly religious upbringing may form an inital opinion but is it the only reason for the retention of this opinion through adult life?

I suspect that many people find themselves in situations where contraception and divorce are necessary and right for them despite the teaching they've had. Far fewer people probably find themselves needing an abortion. How many of us think that we wouldn't have one but defend the rights of others to do so. I can't imagine having an abortion myself but I if I became pregnant through rape I know I would. I expect many continue to find abortion unacceptable because they've never had to question what they've been taught due to their own circumstances.

YANBU. I went to a convent school and they bussed us up to London aged 11 to go on Pro-Life marches. We only knew we were having a day off school and going to the big city, we had no idea what we were talking about. Brain washing crap.

Well I'm an Irish person raised as a Catholic so I may be the prime example of the tye of person you are describing.
As far as religion goes I renounced my Catholic faith a long time ago because I don't agree with many of its teachings but would still adhere to a christian belief system.
As far as abortion goes I would object to it on moral grounds, which may indeed be influenced by my religous backgrounds. It's a very subjective thing to try and conduct self-analysis on and the lines become blurred so it's hard to say with any certainty what is it's source.
However I would vote in favour of legalising abortion in any forthcoming referndum as I don't believe my subjective moral views should be enforced on others or be the basis for our constitutional law.

I wonder how many if those teenage boys would stick around if they got someone pregnant tomorro

The price of liberty is not only eternal vigilance - it is also having to put up with people you don't like spouting ignorant twaddle about matters of which they know nothing. YABU.

I haven't got a definitive list - but the countries that ban abortion that I can think of, are RC countries, and the countries that don't, are not.

It's not a coincidence.

And people's perceptions of what is OK and what isn't, are moulded by cultural norms and what is going on around them. These things do have an affect.

I also think that many / most schools in Ireland are RC? If that is the case then maybe lots of children are getting this from school? From my own experience I know that the anti-abortion message (and anti-contraception) were hammered in our local RC secondary school in the UK in the 80s...

What I am getting at is that you can't separate the law on abortion and some of the attitudes, from the influence of the church in Ireland over the years.

The boy in the OP was on the street with his message as part of a Catholic group.

it can't be ignored IYSWIM.

were you uneasy because you felt these boys had been in some way manipulated/instrumentalised for a political goal?

I findi it ok for young people to protest against abortion. The age/gender of the protestors would not have bothered me I don't think. I have felt uncomfortable when I have seen young people at some political rallies/protest marches wondering to myself how freely they chose their participation IYSWIM