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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as [2]

1007 replies

garlicnutter · 04/07/2011 15:37

... not a feminist?

Since I killed the old one.

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swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 12:50

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MillyR · 06/07/2011 12:51

So, has the People's Front of Judea managed to convince the Judean People's Front that they are a bunch of bullies and should let the People's Front of Judea run the feminist section yet then?

Niecie · 06/07/2011 12:52

You're probably right SAF - both new schools start the same morning 20 minutes apart in time and 5 minutes apart in distance (DS1 has to be there at 8.30 and DS2 by 8.50). I suspect I won't have time to blub until DS2 is safely delivered and I can go home.

garlicnutter · 06/07/2011 12:53

I already know this is a complete waste of effort. But here goes, for the sake of transparency.

Dittany, others (whom I think you respect more than you do me) have expressed my own opinion this morning:

It is good to actually explore whether people are saying what you think they are before attacking it.

I think you bear grudges and personally attack and insult and belittle people who disagreed with you once somewhere, I don't like it. I dislike your nitpicky approach at times, sometimes it's in pursuit of a valid point but often it's not. Your approach makes lots of posters feel cowed and bullied.

It is a tone that patronises and belittles that you can't quite put your finger on. It isn't something that can be reported. Half the time it is a feeling of unease and confusion about what actually happened. I don't think it is exclusive to you either.

Overall, I like your politics but I think you need to back off and admit you're wrong sometimes.

This isn't exclusive to you, but it is usually done in support of you or in correct anticipation of your outrage. It produces exactly the same reaction in your target as emotional abuse does. I've called you on this a few times, and was labelled manipulative. Only four people have ever called me manipulative: my father, my husband, my flatmate and my boss. They were all abusers (abusing other people as well as me). They called me manipulative when I challenged their tactics.

I don't know you outside of MN and I'm not calling you an abuser; I'm highlighting a parallel between your behaviour and some behaviours I've known in real life. Your attacks online have provoked the same reactions in me as theirs.

I think it's also important to point out bullying and personal attacks when you see them. To ignore those makes you complicit IMO.

I have no recourse other than avoiding the FWR board. You've told me not to post on so many threads, there aren't many left that interest me anyway!

Obviously, I can still post where I like but it becomes pointless when the most influential poster - you, Dittany - has dictated that I be ignored or pushed away. I'd end up having a discussion by myself and suffering flashbacks!

To address the long-term grudges you've expressed against me:-

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1] You've accused me of hounding you from thread to thread. That's simply incorrect. I've never hounded anyone on any website. That would be bullying.

To stress your point, you've repeatedly outed my namechanges. That's poor netiquette, against the rules of most forums, and could even have been dangerous in RL for all you knew.

2] You've called me a DV apologist because I refuted your attacks on Erin Pizzey's refuge initiative. You called me a DV apologist, not a Pizzey apologist. You accused me of lying about my feminist involvement in the seventies, told me that things I experienced did not happen, and ignored Erin when she came onto the thread to explain herself.

That thread is online: Pizzey posted as "patria", if anybody wants to search and form their own opinion.

You were still calling me a DV apologist, and accusing me of supporting violence against women, more than a year after that thread finished.

3] You claim I accused you of victim-blaming in rapes. That thread no longer exists, but I remember the incident. I know you never blame a rape victim. Neither do I; the idea's anathema to both of us. Here's my recollection:

The discussion was about young women wearing 'pornified' fashion. You made a remark that suggested girls "dressing like porn stars" invites some men to see them as sexual easy meat (not your words). I agree with that in itself, however I was arguing the case for girls to be able wear whatever they like.

What shocked me about your post was the expression "like porn stars". I re-read it several times, trying to understand its apparent judgementalism. In my reply, I said your comment could be seen as victim-blaming on the basis of their clothes. Everything then kicked off big time. Several other posters to that thread saw what I was trying to say, and attempted to defuse the argument, but it was a lost cause.

In effect, you've misrepresented my criticism of your choice of expression as an attack on the very foundation of your feminism. It wasn't.

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You're very bad at taking criticism, Dittany. I've hardly ever seen you take anything back or apologise, even for hurting someone's feelings. Evidently I haven't read everything you've posted so perhaps I've just been unlucky. I doubt it.

Telling people not to post because you don't like what they write, or because you disapprove of the turn a conversation has taken, is incredibly rude and overbearing. It wouldn't matter much if you weren't a dominant force in FWR, but you are. It's also hypocritical, since you're happy to tell OPs they have no right to complain if their own threads take an unexpected direction.

I repeat, as I have so many times, I agree with at least 70% of your politics and you have helped me to firm up my views on some important issues. But, then, so have many others - without resorting to domineering tactics.

I really don't expect my post to make any difference to anything. Just hoping to clear the air somewhat.

OP posts:
MarySueFTW · 06/07/2011 12:53

If you all want to make small talk or get distracted while this thread gets to 1000 (2000! counting the last one) posts it will have been a complete waste of time. Realises that whatever I say will probably be counter-productive anyway as suspected of being agent provocateur, but I've followed this damn thread and been part of it, and want a satisfying conclusion. Though I don't know what that is, as I don't want anyone banned and can handle myself personally. Hmm.

DontCallMePeanut · 06/07/2011 12:54

TheAtomicBum, she's cross-referencing and misrepresenting a thread... Hmm

Carminagetsprimal · 06/07/2011 12:54

SAF/Niecie - are any of the teachers who taught you still there?

GiveMeSomeSpace · 06/07/2011 12:55

Milly Please don't exclude the Popular Front.......

Niecie · 06/07/2011 12:55

I know SAF, that wasn't part of the plan at all!!! I've lived all over too and still ended up back here, even despite deliberately applying for jobs in other towns after university and moving away several times. Bloody place - it isn't even that nice, but I suppose it must have something going for it.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 12:56

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Niecie · 06/07/2011 12:57

Carmina - I am so old that only the boys' PE teacher is still there, strangely enough. Of all the subjects you wouldn't think it would be PE. My maths teacher left last year although he was there for the first open evening we went to in yr 5.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:00

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TheAtomicBum · 06/07/2011 13:00

Well, sorry for my response then. Arguements over consent really makes my blood boil.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:01

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swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:03

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Prolesworth · 06/07/2011 13:03

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Hullygully · 06/07/2011 13:03

I thought garlic's was very heartfelt. And probably quite close (in the general rather than specific) to what a lot of people on this thread think.
I'm a bit taken aback at what you said saf, it sounded really bitchy.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:03

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swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:05

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Pagwatch · 06/07/2011 13:05

Swallowedafly

If it is of any comfort I have no particular notion of what a radical feminist is. My only issue has been that I feel uncomfortable and unwelcome on threads in the feminism section and I have never really understood why.
I would like to go on threads and understand a bit more about different views.

(I keep talking to you. Don't feel singled out, just your posts keep catching my eyeSmile)

Hullygully · 06/07/2011 13:06

prole, yesterday you told me to fuck off. why can't you actually address the issue? it's not bullying, it's people's experience. It's not projection of aggression, it's receipt of it. I am big enough and old enough and tough enough to know it when I receive it.

But, how's it go. prole?

Oh yeah, fuck off. Right back atcha.

Pagwatch · 06/07/2011 13:06

Massive x- post...

Hullygully · 06/07/2011 13:06

Dittany has been "singled out" COS IT'S HER THAT DOES IT. DERRRRR.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 13:07

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garlicnutter · 06/07/2011 13:07

Nice one, SAF.

oh bugger off - have I ever sworn at you?

you've said single mum's shouldn't complain about being able to access paid employment because they get loads of benefits and what else would they need and that mother's of sn children are raking it in on benefits.

No, I said I don't think SAHMs should be paid a salary by the taxpayer. Not exactly (or even remotely) what you've written there.

if i ever mention what you've said in a post you report it

I've only EVER reported one post on the grounds of personal offence. That one post was one of yours.

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