To be annoyed my DH had a naked private dance

[maybunny]

OK my DH wasnt naked, but the stripper in the stripclub in Los Angeles was :-(
He went to LA on business (PR - so mostly socialising rather than what I consider 'work'!) last month, and he has only just told me that a colleague paid for him to have a private dance after they all went to a strip club. I was most annoyed because he had kept it a secret from me for a few weeks, and that he had put 'saving dace' in front of colleagues before my feelings.
He said he thought I would be a bit annoyed about it which was why he hadnt told me about it at the time (esp as I was having huge sleep problems with DD - ie surviving on 2 hours a night!)
I am so upset about this and apart from apologising (which he has done now he knows how I feel) I dont know wht he can do to make me feel better. I am realy struggling to forgive him.
:-(

All this pathetic "can't help it" excuses are for the weak willed....

H works in an industry where he would be very much expected to take clients out to strip clubs. He stipulated during the interview that he was not prepared to do this, but that he was happy to take clients to pubs, restaurants and sport events. Funnily, his (future) boss respected him for this. And now other guys in his dpt also refuse to go to these seedy places. Quite a lot of men do not like those places.

I really respect that.

I so do not respect the "cattle" mentality of men, that when they are in groups they behave like this.

I mean, either you think it is o.k. and you explain this to your wife, and get on with it all.

Or you think it isn't o.k., and just don't go even when pressured (H has spent many a stag do in pubs when "all" his mates would be at strip clubs. Interestingly when he says "Sorry, I just don't do that" there are always a few guys who see an "opt out possibility" and join him).

But this weak minded "I could not help it, all the other guys were doing it, I did not pay for it myself" crap would piss me off.

It just shows lack of character and backbone.

Re: Side rooms
Yes, I've heard a fair few things that have gone on in various clubs around the world (including a very seedy on in UK) where an extra £20 will get you various sexual favours in the carpark just outside - a taxi driver in the area of the one in UK told me that one (had split with an ex who it turned out frequented it and he thought it prudent to warn me...not sure how pleased I was about that ). That one was full of Polish and East Europeans.
Grinding their genitals and bum on the nose area are apparently the norm for most private dances . How hygienic!

This idea that it is only "inadequate" men that go to this kind of place is well wide of the mark.

I'd agree, in the sense that the classic, "sad git" persona no longer forms the bulk of the recently expanded client base.

Because standards and principles within a society are plastic not steel. If you normalize a behavior by making it mainstream, and re-frame the motivations and objectives (all good clean fun, very empowering for women, indistinguishable from any other service industry job, non domineering wives and GFs should heartily support their partner having a hobby to call his own) then you are going to widen the client net.

Given the expansion in the number of establishments and their acceptance in "mainstream" locations, which has led to an incredible increase in customers, it stands to reason that fresh uptake won't tightly represent one single sub set of men anymore.

I think the problem is that the plasticity that allowed the expansion of clients also accounts for the shift in client's perceptions of women as a gender.

It is not that easy to select another human for intimate acts or attention as though they were a dish on a menu and still retain the belief that woman are NOT consumables.

So while it is inaccurate to say that a man who steps over the recently lowered social barriers in order to experience sexual titillation on demand automatically fits a stereotype, there is a significant risk that he will become a cliche with repeated exposure and consumption.

I'd be furious at the infidelity (paying for something doesn't make it better, fgs - if this were a random girl in bar in a bedroom without an audience, would he think it okay? Would a prostitute be?) and it also is disgusting because it commodifies women and sex. There's been research into why Haiti has the highest rape rate in the world, and the commodification of sex (believed to link back to slavery) reduces it to a property crime in many eyes. And one in which women are insanely rich and not generous enough with their favours to the impoverished male, terrifyingly enough.

The way the sex trade has become mainstream frightens me. I knew a couple of girls at university who worked as strippers, and one was sexually assaulted by a very senior executive who asked her to do a private dance in his office and then wanked over her. That company runs an international chain talking about their no-touch policy and how their women are treated with total respect and not as sex objects or easy meat. Yeah, right.

It's also disturbing that it can be corporate entertainment. How is it reasonable when a lot of women won't be asked along, and those who will be and who go - how can their colleagues take the women they work with seriously while they are paying other women to take their clothes off in that way? And what does it say if they compartmentalise the two? It's turning human beings into objects.

In 2001/2 there was a documentary on the porn industry on C4, which showed a young woman trying to break into it. She was abused horribly and effectively raped at an audition, in front of the cameras. He's not watched porn since. Kind of hard to, when you connect the human cost. And I'm not prudish about it - I have no issue at all with sex - I know people who've never had any desire to be monogamous, and it works for them, and great. I have an issue with exploitation. I don't believe the women I knew who stripped for money found it empowering, they just found it effective in reducing their overdrafts.

Chandon - a big hurrah for your H. People should stand up for what they believe and as you say one person setting the example gives others an opt-out.

I took a job where my boss encouraged me to take out contacts and get them drunk - i thought that was ridiculous and undermined my reputation so I made it clear that wasn't my style and not necessary as a way for me to "produce."

perfect storm I also saw that documentary. The scene with the rape was shocking to behold. I remember the camera men intervened in the end because they couldn't bear it.

I think these lap dancing clubs are really a utter disgrace. And in the US I think the 'dances' are very full on and explicit based on what I've heard. I think the OP's DH should have got up and walked out from his private dance and the fact that he didn't says a lot about this morals/respects for the OP.

LittleWhiteWolf Sun 03-Jul-11 22:13:33

*YANBU. I'd be livid, personally. Shows he doesn't have the courage of his convictions to stand up to peer pressure (is he 12 FFS?) and more worrying it shows a distinct lack of consideration to you, your daughter and every other woman on the planet.

But the way these threads go, many will think I'm a prude because I don't like the idea of lap dancing/strip clubs and that its an overreaction to be upset by it hmm*

Are you me ???

i can't remember a thread like this where the bloke didn't claim to have been forced into it by a mate. all these poor, poor men with what can only be described as strange, sexually abusive friends forcing them into encounters they don't want. Surely someone should have alerted the authorities about these people by now?

Going to call bullshit on you Tallulah. If you really were a lapdancer, are you seriously expecting us to believe that you had conversations with your clients, to the extent that you managed to establish that their wives were domineering? That's just another woman-hating argument. Why the hell do women see the need to blame their fellow women for men's behaviour? I will never understand it...

Anyways, the point of my post was to say - another one here who refused to visit these clubs with clients. But that wasn't enough, IMO. I wanted my whole company to stop offering this as corporate entertainment, or pandering to client requests. To me, it seemed totally iniquitous with our much vaunted "diversity policy" and made a mockery of the value we allegedly placed on our women colleagues.

I was ridiculed, shouted down, accused of being uptight, of doing my partner's bidding - you name it, it was said . But I stood my ground - and I'd done my homework and knew I had allies. The only defence our CEO had was that we'd lose business, but I knew that risk was pretty infinitesimal. So I said that if we lost one bit of business as a result of our decision, I'd understand a return to the bad old days, but I would resign.

Of course, we didn't lose any business at all. Clients respected our stance in the main and for a lot of weak men, it was a relief not to have that pressure put on them.

I won't pretend it was easy, but standing up for what's right often isn't, is it? IMO this needs to start at the top of these organisations - with the CEO and the board.

I know lots of posters have said don't infantilise men but......I really genuinely think men do revert to boys when in a drunken crowd.

I think they frequently take leave of their senses and get egged on to do anything for a laugh. This DH obviously thought it was a bit of a hoot and no doubt enjoyed himself but then it has been preying on his mind ever since (now he is sober and not surrounded by lap dancers) hence the confession. I expect he is genuinely sorry.

I think the biggest disappointment if it was me, wouldn't be the sexual element it would be the pathetic/spineless element.

You are right flagging. And people shouldnt underplay the role booze plays in all this. Take that away and it would be a different story I am sure. Neither that or the peer pressure thing are excuses, mind. Just explanations.

Can anyone explain why this works for corporate business? I really can't see how a group of drunken randy men paying hand over fist for women to gyrate about them can be seen as remotely impressive for business? If anything surely it shows weakness of character, poorly spent time, disrespect for women and possibly the least imaginative way to show people a good time? Hardly thinking outside the box are they (no pun intended).

There are things that DH can't do if he wants to be married to me. This is one of those things.

He is a grown up, he doesn't have to be married to me if he doesn't want to.

A man who thinks it is OK to buy and sell women is not someone I want in my life.

"Can anyone explain why this works for corporate business?" The men that are being entertained get to go to these places without leaving a paper trail of cash withdrawals and credit card statements.

The whole reason that you can buy "venus Dollars" is so that they can get the dances "on expenses".

I really genuinely think men do revert to boys when in a drunken crowd

I really genuinely believe that people in packs add vast quantities of alcohol to the mix deliberately. In order to procure "impaired judgment" so they can convince themselves that they are not responsible for their actions. Actions they had pretty much worked out they were open to, in advance of the first sip.

Most of the boys I teach would find that rather complicated process of self deception pretty hard to emulate without it being repeatedly modeled for them. They are still too unsavvy to do much more than screw up first, and THEN start trawling around for the nearest get out of jail free card with an air of increasing desperation.

Its not just men who do stupid things when drunk or revert to teenaged behaviour.

How funny that they can buy what abbreviates to VD
I just don't understand how it impresses anyone in the corporate world...

This "people act differently when drunk" excuse is a load of crap, a person's true character comes out when they've had a drink. DH was in a notoriously hard-drinking section of the military, he wouldn't do anything drunk that he wouldn't do sober, because of the type of person he is, drink doesn't turn someone into an idiot , that idiot is already there under the surface, being drunk just gives them a handy excuse to pin bad behaviour onto.

Fastweb

" think the problem is that the plasticity that allowed the expansion of clients also accounts for the shift in client's perceptions of women as a gender.

It is not that easy to select another human for intimate acts or attention as though they were a dish on a menu and still retain the belief that woman are NOT consumables.

So while it is inaccurate to say that a man who steps over the recently lowered social barriers in order to experience sexual titillation on demand automatically fits a stereotype, there is a significant risk that he will become a cliche with repeated exposure and consumption."

Though your post is very interesting, do you have any evidence to support the above? In my experience, most people's characters are fully formed by the time they go to this kind of establishment. I do not think decent guys become unfaithful misogynists, nor do I feel the removal of lapdancing places would turn unfaithful misogynists into decent chaps. In addition, I don't think people generalise from lapdancers to all women any more than they would from telling a random woman to clean for them because they employ a cleaner at home.

However I am open to real evidence proving my experience merely anecdotal.

Malificence - There is being drunk and there is being rat-arsed. There is a difference. I have seen some blokes do v v bizarre things when the latter, things they would never have done sober, so it does change behaviour. FWIW, your husband sounds like a bit of a one-off to me.

I'm obviously a full blown idiot then.

i have a problem with any man thinking it is ok to buy a womans time for gratification, how can you not see that as fucked up. even if they are just sitting there having a drink with them (which is just pathetically sad) its that he feels it is ok to buy her, that a womans body is a commodity, it is a form of prostitution. i can understand that attraction of looking at attractive women but i will not ever think it is acceptable to feel it is ok to buy her, she is a human not a piece of meat

employing a woman to clean your house, a woman as your pa, a woman as your accountant and so on is totally different, they are doing a job they are not fulfilling a sexual fantasy (you may fantasize in your head but that is different that is not what they are exchanging money for)

Flagging, DH was in his early 20s when he saw that documentary and cheerfully admitted to using porn before. He's never used it since. We've talked about it, and he said he'd have no objection if he knew it was genuinely consensually made, but what was shown there was seriously abusive and he wanted no part of it.

As to lapdancing clubs; it's all well and good thinking the nice safe sanitised sex industry is all about empowered women using men for money. It's just that if that's so, why are all the people who actually own the joints and make the real dosh out of them men? I call spun, PR'd bullshit.

And the idea that men who go to lapdancing clubs claim their wives don't understand them... gosh, where've I heard that line before? I thought it wasn't cheating and didn't count? So why is their wife's ability or otherwise to meet their emotional or sexual needs in any way a factor at all?

perfectstorm once again you hit the nail on the head

Those women aren't empowered at all. What could possibly be empowering about showing all your bits to some slavering stranger again and again and again.

BTW I saw a documentary on Vegas lap dancing club too . Many were single mothers, traumatised young women from complex backgrounds, dirt poor when the documentary crew started digging deeper. Noone they spoke to was just there for the hell of it/sexual empowerment/easy money etc. All said it was a means to an end and ultimately they wanted to leave.

The men think it is a lark but for the women it is soul destroying.

I didn't say that all men who went to lapdancing clubs were inadequate Larry, I said that men who need a power rush from handing over money to women for a sexual display or service, are inadequate.

You still haven't confirmed that you believe that handing over money for a drink, is exactly the same as handing over money for a sexual display or service.