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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that there is a place for CAPITAL PUNISHMENT in a civilised society?

136 replies

HoHumm · 01/07/2011 22:56

Whenever any of us plebs (politicians would never debate it as they would be too scared to) call for a return of the death penalty, there are cries of 'not acceptable in a civilised country', 'that would make us as bad as the murderer', 'rehabilitating them makes us a more caring society' ad nauseum!

Well I think that is bollocks. Humanely (which is more they afforded their victims) putting a so called human down to rid society of a danger to all, cannot be compared to a sick twisted individual torturing someone for kicks who has done nothing wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time in many cases. That is not revenge, it's just pure logic. Do we really believe we will go to hell if we support the death penalty? Do you consider yourself a better (spiritually) person if you support keeping these people alive?

The money spent on keeping these people alive in comfortable circumstances (approx £40k per year) could be much better spent helping the victim's families. Just what is the point in keeping these people alive. In many countries in the world life is cheap and thousands of people are killed every day in wars, by dictators and even in simple car accidents. Why would a murderers life be of value to any one, especially as it costs a lot of money to keep the public safe from them?

Murderers cannot be rehabilitated IMO. Once you have crossed that line and are capable of killing someone in cold blood, you will be capable of doing it again. Add to that the fact that many do not admit it and feel remorse but try everything to wheedle out of it. That applies to all murderers whatever their age. Running someone down in your car by accident is obviously different and should be dealt with differently.

The cases of Levi Bellfield and that Italian scum in the news recently have totally summed up all that is wrong in our 'punishment' system today. Many of these 'people' enjoy being in jail as they have a sense of routine and have everything done for them, they can even get a job and use the money to buy pleasurable items.

Miscarriages of justice would be pretty rare these days, we have moved on from the 1960's in terms of science and the verdict would be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. I could live with the occasional mistake tbh, it the murder rate in general was reduced. I can't understand the argument that it would not be a deterrant either? It would surely deter me if I was that way inclined.

It is said that there can be no 'emotion' in law and I have never understood this as if we did not have emotions, no one would give a toss if their loved ones were murdered. Well they would'nt love them anyway!

OP posts:
seeker · 02/07/2011 20:29

Nope. I'm saying that most murders are gang related or drug related or in the criminal fraternity.

That's why murders with "innocent' victims are headline news. Because they are very rare.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 02/07/2011 20:29

1, even forensic evidence isn't infalliable.

2, putting to death someone who is mentally ill for commiting murder, is no different to charging a epileptic with assault for hitting someone while having a fit.

3, it does not work as a deterent. Places with the death penalty do not have a lower murder rate.

There is no logically argument for the death penalty, none.

AgentZigzag · 02/07/2011 20:36

And how does what you believe translate into what you think about capital punishment seeker?

Does it tip you in the direction of wanting to bring it back?

AgentZigzag · 02/07/2011 20:38

And a question for anyone wanting to bring it back, what method of death would you want?

If it's taken that it's inhumane to take a life, would you go for a humane, quick and painless death?

warthog · 02/07/2011 20:45

i think there should be voluntary sign ups to medical trials in exchange for privileges.

like if they take a new alzheimers drug then they can take part in the prison football team.

funding would come from the pharmaceuticals to provide these extra facilities and society would benefit from the research.

prisoners would be giving back to society while feeling crap from the drugs.

win win eh?

seeker · 02/07/2011 21:04

Absolutely not, AgentZigzag - I am absolutely opposed to capital punishment under any circumstances.

I was prompted to post by those who say that the money spent on keeping people in prison should be given to victim's families. I wanted to point out that it;s not such an easy equation.

HoHumm · 02/07/2011 21:08

So case in point below. This is the gentleman who stabbed Roy Whiting in the eye yesterday (not that I would hold that against him). Freed to kill again within 3 years of release. A murder that would have been avoided had we had the death penalty.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-561230/Sentenced-life--murderer-freed-prison-stab-wife-death.html

Or how about this one:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2010/09/12/shocking-dossier-reveals-fears-that-freed-axe-killer-thomas-mcculloch-will-strike-again-86908-22555525/

Like to live next door to this charming gentleman?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8103007/Votes-for-prisoners-John-Hirst-profile.html

Those of you who really believe that these fucked up individuals deserve to be rehabilitated and have the same human rights as the rest of us, have a serious problem. With the Human Rights Laws and Europe governing us, there is ALWAYS the chance any murderer could be freed because it must be a hard life for the poor lambs in prison.

Capital Punishment is not about revenge IMO, it is about putting the rights of society to live without fear of being murdered above those who murder. 'Life' in jail rarely means jail and what is the point? What is the argument for letting these people live to old age in comfort (and they DO live in more comfort that many elderly and low income people on the outside).

Seeker - so most murder VICTIMS are unsavory then. Tell that to the mothers of James Bulger, Sara Payne, Milly Dowler, Marsha McDonnell, Amelie Delagrange, Holly Wells, Jessica Chapman, Joanna Yeates, and the children of Rachel Nickell, Heather Barnett..... I could go on.

OP posts:
AwesomePan · 02/07/2011 21:20

seeker is talking a load of old bollocks.

I have some experience in this field. Stats vary from year to year, but around half to two-thirds of people in prison for taking a life have done so when under the influence of alcohol - it isn't general done in the 'cool, measured gang-related action' that is being portrayed there. Most victims are known to their assailant and are entirely innocent.

seeker · 02/07/2011 21:22

HoHumm - I stand by "most".

The list of victims you gave must cover at least 10 years. Would you care to guess how many murders there were in the last 10 years?

noddyholder · 02/07/2011 21:29

hohumm you are quite hilarious just what we need here. And how convenient to turn up on friday and saturday when we are all around to listen. Thanks

warthog · 02/07/2011 22:03

well i think i have a good solution.

AgentZigzag · 02/07/2011 22:12

Ahhh, I see what you mean now seeker. It is difficult to get past the medias sensationalisation of a certain type of victim to get a more objective picture. I've no idea what the statistic are for 'innocent' vs 'convicted criminal' victims, what are you basing your view on?

Would your suggestion be just for serious violent offenders warthog (ie because they deserve it), or will you include people in prison for motoring offences/non payment of fines?

Also, how would this be squared with ethical guidelines? I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using knowledge I knew was coerced from vulnerable people.

Empusa · 02/07/2011 23:01

"If you believe taking an innocent life is the worst crime possible, then you couldn't then say that killing innocent people by mistake wasn't that big a deal. Or as you phrased it "worth the risk".

However if you think that killing innocent people by mistake was worth the risk, then you are saying that killing an innocent person isn't the worst crime possible, and therefore isn't worthy of the death penalty.

Either killing another is totally wrong (therefore ruling out the death penalty), or it's ok (in which case the death penalty isn't needed, or in fact any other form of punishment)."

I was hoping that by posting the above that the OP would vanish in a puff of logic. Unfortunately not it seems.

Kalinda · 03/07/2011 07:16

I'm going to regret engaging further on this, but it seems Thomas Aquinas is living amongst us - in a counsel flat surrounded by riotous Poles.

Firstly, HoHumm, wrt the examples you cite, the third person was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. If you are going to debate this issue, at least understand the difference. Unless you are advocating the execution of anyone who kills, irrespective of mens rea.

Secondly, you are conflating two distinct issues. The problems attendant with parole decisions (and the effect of the HRA on prisoners' rights) are not an argument for us, as a society, to decide that murdering those who murder is the way forward. Once again, you cite extreme examples. Not all murderers are psychopaths. But you would have them all killed because a few are. I am against the death penalty, but I am not in favour of convicted psychopaths who show no remorse and show a high probability of recidivism being released onto the streets. I don't see any conflict in that. The problem your examples highlight is one of sentencing and parole, not a problem with the stance that the death penalty is wrong.

BlimmingCheek · 03/07/2011 11:26

Kalinda - I am very aware of the difference between murder and 'manslaughter' although in that case I cannot understand why the guy chopping up his landlady with an axe in an unprovoked attack would be manslaughter. If the verdict relates to mental health issues, I really don't accept that as a 'get out' clause and IMO even more reason that he should have been put down.

Starchart · 03/07/2011 11:36

I don't believe in deterrent to prevent crime, I believe in education to prevent crime.

You know that a vast majority of people in prison have some sort of unaddressed disability or mental health issue right?

How did that happen? How did they get that way? How comes they were not properly educated, provided for in a way that led to them becoming participating, good citizens.

I do not agree with a system that fails children and then kills them for having been failed.

Starchart · 03/07/2011 11:38

Keeping, stones would work for us. We have more beaches than Iran!

suzikettles · 03/07/2011 11:47

"even more reason that he should have been put down"

I find that quite chilling.

Tyr · 03/07/2011 11:54

OP,

I note that you list the killers of James Bulger among your examples. They were children too.
Lest I have misunderstood you, could you confirm that you would advocate the death penalty for them too?

quimbledonsemi · 03/07/2011 12:10

OP - as the US has shown it is actually more expensive to kill than to imprison for life. Also stats show that the introduction death penalty doesn't cause a decrease in the rate of murders.
You say you could live with the odd mistake - so if it was your son or daughter you would be fine with that?

seeker · 03/07/2011 12:18

Blimmincheek. Could you confirm the following.

  1. If your child was wrongly convicted of murder you could live with him/her being executed?
  1. If your child killed someone in a psychotic episode you could live with him/her being executed.
and
  1. In the case, for example, of the killers of James Bulger, you would be happy with the state executing children.
Rockerchic · 03/07/2011 12:49

The thing with capital punishment is what happens if you were to execute the person? Remember people have been convicted before only to find out years later they did not commit that crime,what you going to do bring that person back from the dead? apologie to their family? There is no safe proofing you can do with this. I for one do not want to see it back and it never will be.

Starchart · 03/07/2011 12:57

But also once we start killing people for doing things that we have judged to be VERY wrong, what happens if people start to feel that actually adultary is VERY wrong too, and credit card fraud, and disagreeing with a teacher etc etc.

What happens if the victim is a sex trafficker. Do we let the murderer off? What if the murderer is also a sex trafficker. Do we let them off then?

It's a road I do not wish our society to go down - EVER.

Peachy · 03/07/2011 13:03

YABU

Killing is wrong IMo full stop

It doesn't take much reading up on death Row to see the amount of dodgy cases that get that far

There is even scientific doubt about the absolutec ertainty of some DNA cases (issues with storage etc) and any risk of a mistake whatsoever is immoral IMO

I believe in hard sentences for ahrsh crimes, but that death penalties are more of a cpunishment for the famillies of the criminal who are innocent than the perpetrator themselves. Criminal better punished facing hard labour IMO than a quick end and the family suffer the horrors forever.

I however rank teh family of the perp alongside the family of the victim as innocent and I know many do not. A viewpoint I cannot fathom.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 04/07/2011 12:35

Blimming: 'If the verdict relates to mental health issues, I really don't accept that as a 'get out' clause and IMO even more reason that he should have been put down.'

Really?