to think that there is a place for CAPITAL PUNISHMENT in a civilised society?

[HoHumm]

Whenever any of us plebs (politicians would never debate it as they would be too scared to) call for a return of the death penalty, there are cries of 'not acceptable in a civilised country', 'that would make us as bad as the murderer', 'rehabilitating them makes us a more caring society' ad nauseum!

Well I think that is bollocks. Humanely (which is more they afforded their victims) putting a so called human down to rid society of a danger to all, cannot be compared to a sick twisted individual torturing someone for kicks who has done nothing wrong other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time in many cases. That is not revenge, it's just pure logic. Do we really believe we will go to hell if we support the death penalty? Do you consider yourself a better (spiritually) person if you support keeping these people alive?

The money spent on keeping these people alive in comfortable circumstances (approx £40k per year) could be much better spent helping the victim's families. Just what is the point in keeping these people alive. In many countries in the world life is cheap and thousands of people are killed every day in wars, by dictators and even in simple car accidents. Why would a murderers life be of value to any one, especially as it costs a lot of money to keep the public safe from them?

Murderers cannot be rehabilitated IMO. Once you have crossed that line and are capable of killing someone in cold blood, you will be capable of doing it again. Add to that the fact that many do not admit it and feel remorse but try everything to wheedle out of it. That applies to all murderers whatever their age. Running someone down in your car by accident is obviously different and should be dealt with differently.

The cases of Levi Bellfield and that Italian scum in the news recently have totally summed up all that is wrong in our 'punishment' system today. Many of these 'people' enjoy being in jail as they have a sense of routine and have everything done for them, they can even get a job and use the money to buy pleasurable items.

Miscarriages of justice would be pretty rare these days, we have moved on from the 1960's in terms of science and the verdict would be 'beyond reasonable doubt'. I could live with the occasional mistake tbh, it the murder rate in general was reduced. I can't understand the argument that it would not be a deterrant either? It would surely deter me if I was that way inclined.

It is said that there can be no 'emotion' in law and I have never understood this as if we did not have emotions, no one would give a toss if their loved ones were murdered. Well they would'nt love them anyway!

i have just seen the OP starting another thread about howthey promote racism.

They are clearly a bit dim.

YABDU - ever heard of the Lesley Molseed murder? How Stefan Kiszko was wrongfully convicted of her murder? He served 16yrs for a terrible miscarriage of justice and died approx 18 months after his release.

There are PLENTY of cases like these.

Aren't most murders committed by someone who knows the victims, so random coldblooded murders are not the norm? The cost of prison should not come into it, we should be seeking justice, not aiming to keep costs down. When the man who was involved in the killing of Baby P was subsequently convicted of raping a 2 year old, my first thought was that I would not be upset if someone dropped a rock on his head, but in reality we should not give in to our lowest, violent instincts as individuals or as a state.

'I could live with the occasional mistake tbh, it the murder rate in general was reduced.'

That makes me feel ill.

Well you are just full of the charming topics aren't you OP? Bring back the death penalty, send those foreigners back where they came from. Are you Jamez from the anti-misandry thread?

Perhaps we could have two levels of murder?
Murder 1 and Murder 2.
Murder 1 could be where the killer did not closely know their victim and was "banged to rights", e.g. shooting sprees in schools. I'd be happy to support capital punishment for them.

And when you have met someone, as I have, who represented and failed to secure an acquittal for someone who was executed and who he strongly believed to be innocent, then you might have a better perspective on 'living with the occasional mistake'.

Nailitorelse - The death penalty would obviously not act as a deterrent for those who carried out the kind of shooting sprees you refer to - people such as Derrick Bird usually wind up dead anyway, often by suicide. And what is more, if they weren't I think its pretty self-evident that people who carry out such atrocities are mentally unbalanced . So you are advocating capital punishment for the mentally defective.

Why not go the whole hog - and bring back hanging for sheep stealing? We could also remove women's right to vote, women's entitlement to own property, and why not make rape inside marriage legal again. We could reinstate workhouses, send children up chimneys and bring back debtor's prisons while we are at it.

Yabu

And the number of "shooting sprees" and murders where the victim is unknown to the muderer is so small that setting up the infrastructure to execute the perpetrator would probably be more expensive that keeping the in prison.

And that isn;t even addressing the issue of whether we as a society would wish to execute the mentally ill.

wearenotinkansas I think that you may be being a tad over dramatic!
All I am saying is that, I know that it won't act as a deterrent, but (a) I'd rather not pay to keep them alive, and (b) it may be kinder to put them out of their obvious misery!

So you are in favour of killing people who are mentally ill - and therefore not responsible for their actions! I actually find it staggering that anyone in this century would hold your views. Thankfully, it seems from the rest of the posts that you are in a very small minority indeed.

Are you advocating that victims's families be given the money that would have gone to incarcerating the murderer?

What for? Why do the families of murder victims need extra money?

I think once you get into revenging murderers and paying off the families of their victims you are looking at a very different legal system. (although there are already some victim compensation schemes, and the revolting victim impact statement, so I guess we are some way down this path).

I'm just trying to imagine the Daily Mail headlines when the drug-addict girlfriend of a murdered drug dealer gets a nice big payout.

The "victims of crime" aren't all nice people who deserve presents while the criminals are all evil.

When I see details of death sentences been carried out in the US, it seems to be poorly-educated, young black men, often with very low IQs / possibly with learning difficulties being put to death, and overweight, aggressively right wing, drawling white men telling everyone what a great idea it is (whilst running for Governor), and glossing over the need for firm evidence against the accused.

That doesn't seem to be a particularly fair or intelligent way of running a legal system.

Miscarriages of justice are far from rare in a judicial environment where money can buy you access to lawyers who are often 'slebs in their own right.

Trial by National Enquirer is creepy and reminiscent of public executions.

Research has shown that the death sentence does not lead to a reduction in violent crimes.

So no, there is no place in civilised society for capital punishment, because even without bringing any of the emotive elements into the argument, capital punishment is not an effective deterrent, it costs a fortune, and the system is open to abuse and unfair.

Cyclists who wear lycra. String 'em up!

If the majority of people thought you were mentally insane and voted to hang you how would you like it?
Murderers are mentally insane, i mean normal people know its wrong so dont murder. Murderers are sick. If you think its OK to kill you are as bad.
Your argument is just childish. Sorry.
You should read some of the life histories of people on death row in America, they are all barking mad and should be shown mercy and a good example by those of us fortunate enough by birth and experience to know right from wrong.

How about the abused wife, who watches year after year her husband beat her and the kids and puts up with it for fear for her life and then poisons him in his sleep to make it stop and save her kids from a living hell? Would you execute her?

Not only does it cost a whole lot more to kill them than keep them in prison for life, it's also way more expensive to keep them on death row $90,000 extra a year per prisoner that's been moved to death row.

Of course, I'm using the US as an example. Perhaps we should model ourselves on Iran, I'm sure that's cheaper.

Stoning would work well. And if we got the stones from local beaches it would be really cheap...

I don't agree with capital punishment but I would make one exception for Levi Bellfield

Of course YABU.

You say you could live with an 'occasional mistake' - well what margin rate is acceptable? 1:100? 1:50? 1:1000?

What if that 1 was you?

Also, I'd be interested in any stats that demonstrate that violent crime is if fact higher now. I thought it was more that fear of crime, in particular violent crime, was higher but the crime rate was fairly consistent, or lower?

Surely we don't make policies based on fear of something? Because if we do, clowns are first against the wall. Creepy feckers.

YABU

In the US, where the death penalty is still used, it has;

a) cost the US taxpayers billions of dollars to keep these men and women on "death row" - in some cases for years and years and years

b) has not in any way reduced the statewide or national crime rate i.e. people do not fear it as a punishment

There have been many, many terrible micarriages of justice over the years - and there will probably be many more.

That an innocent person is murdered is a tradgedy. That another innocent person is killed in retribution is morally reprehensible and has no place in the 21st century.

YABU. Very unreasonable.

Has the death penalty significantly reduced murder and other violent crime in countries that still use it? Or just led to a societies where violence - perpetrated both by criminals and by state sanction - is normal?

As others have pointed out, death row situations are not the cheap option. The sort of cheap justice and quick post conviction hangings you are advocating goes on in countries we view as semi-uncivilised.

Not every murderer is a sadistic psychopath lacking remorse. People do stupid, terrible things, because of circumstance. People do get rehabilitated.

And as for you "I can live with a few mistakes". Well good for you, you obviously have no compassion or empathy for the victims of such mistakes and their families; or for the victims of the crimes themselves, whose love ones still have no justice and have the death of an innocent person on their conscience too.

Lots of people have mentioned miscarriages of justice on this thread. They do still happen, that's why we have an appeals system. I remember one that felt close to my heart, both at the time and now: Sally Clarke. Falsely convicted of murdering her babies. Cleared on appeal because the forensic evidence was utterly flawed. Took her own life not long after release. You'd have had her life taken long before her innocence was proven.

Actually, you disgust me.

Well said kalinda

What about the case of Derek Bentley??? A young man with learning difficulties. He wasnt guilty, but was hung anyway.

OP - I guess you would say that, as he had SN he wasnt worth saving???

Derek Bentley's case was years ago before we had forensic science. That case has no relevance today.

So all murderers are mentally ill who should be shown mercy and leniency? Do not get that argument. Even more reason for them to be put to death to rid society of them.

Capital punishment is 'barbaric'? What putting an injection in someone's arm and them dropping off into oblivion is barbaric? No what's barbaric is someone battering an innocent woman around the head with a hammer, slitting her throat and then cutting off her breasts. Leaving her body for her children to find and then comforting them. You lot are completely weird if you think that person could ever be rehabilitated and money should be spent on feeding them.