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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be a fan of the Oxford comma?

140 replies

MrMan · 01/07/2011 22:05

Sentences just seem so wrong otherwise.

OP posts:
usualsuspect · 01/07/2011 23:03
heleninahandcart · 01/07/2011 23:06

eggs and toast, otherwise the sausages and eggs should go at the end. My rules Grin

thursday · 01/07/2011 23:08

i used to work for 63336. i was marked down for SPG for not doing this. it really pissed me off at the time. no one likes being told the thing they've been doing for 30 years is wrong, especially when it's not. i have started using it all the bloody time now though, and why not.

Goofymum · 01/07/2011 23:10

Just googled it. My evil boss used to berate me publically for using a comma in a series before an and. I wish I knew this then - then I could have said "I am using the oxford comma you stupid, fucking, bullying, and evil bitch." See what I did there? Grin

CareyHunt · 02/07/2011 08:56

How about this;

I'd like to thank my parents, Barbara and God.

Or;

I'd like to thank my parents, Brian, and God.

That's why you need an Oxford comma.

Grin It's my favourite punctuation mark (don't we all have one of those?).
I love the song too, despite strongly disagreeing with its sentiment!

I hope it doesn't all kick off on this very emotive punctuation thread!

MrMan · 02/07/2011 09:01

Have to be amused by the people coming to diss the topic. A, you were given a fair idea of the subject when you clicked on the title. B, MN runs on text so it seems reasonable to talk about clear ways to write. C, you were interested enough to post. D, do I come on your thread to complain about how mundane it is (Katie Price ghost-writing, anyone?)

OP posts:
MinnieBar · 02/07/2011 09:03

Love love love a good Oxford comma. I used to work for OUP so am more than a little biased in its favour.

Right, the question is Oxford comma fans - do you use it when texting or not?

TrilllianAstra · 02/07/2011 09:04

I like it too, it divides things up more neatly.

IHeartKingThistle · 02/07/2011 09:06

That comma's wrong though!

TrilllianAstra · 02/07/2011 09:10

Love "My parents, Barbara and God"

JollySergeantJackrum · 02/07/2011 09:11

YABU. The oxford comma is wrong. I cannot count the number of arguments I have had about it at work.

TrilllianAstra · 02/07/2011 09:12

semi colon yeah whatevs

loubielou31 · 02/07/2011 09:16

Why is it wrong? I've never been told that before.
Not commas but I have been told that apostrophes are going to be taken out of the GCSE syllabus.

BelfastBloke · 02/07/2011 09:17

I posted this in Pedants' Corner, before I realised that you already had a thread about it in AIBU. Sorry for the double post. Lots of stories over the last two days that the Oxford Style Guide has dropped the use of the Oxford comma.

Turns out that is not true.

But reading about it, and the Twitter/Facebook firestorm the story created, led me to Linda Holmes on the NPR (National Public Radio) blog. Thought some of you might like her style:

"I have a confession.

I am only too happy to emphatically defend split infinitives against the accusation that they are offensive in any language except Latin. I believe perfectly marvelous sentences can end with prepositions or begin with "and."

I make up words, I write in fragments, I am absolutely not a flawless user of any kind of punctuation, I make noises in the middle of my own writing (like "AAAAARGH!"), and I often like the rhythms of sentences more than their technicalities. Run-on sentences amuse me. I frequently give the impression that the American Parentheticals Council has me on retainer, or that I am encouraging a bidding war between Big Ellipses and Big Dashes to see which will become my official sponsor. ("Dashes: The Official 'And Another Thing' Punctuator Of Monkey See.") I write "email" without a hyphen, I am a big fan of the word "crazypants," and my plan is to master "who"/"whom" only on my deathbed, as my ironic dying gift to absolutely no one, since there will be no one left to hear me.

And yet, even the rumbling of a distant threat to the Oxford comma (or "serial comma") turns me instantly into an NFL referee, blowing my whistle and improvising some sort of signal ? perhaps my hands clasped to my own head as if in pain ? to indicate that the loss of the serial comma would sadden me beyond words.

This blew up yesterday when there was a rumbling that the University of Oxford was dumping its own comma. As it turned out, this wasn't the case. They haven't changed their authoritative style guide, but they've changed their internal PR department procedures that they use for press releases. The PR department and the editorial department are two different things, so this doesn't necessarily mean much of anything, except that it's maybe a little embarrassing to have the PR department of the university with which you're affiliated abandon your style guide.

For those of you who enjoy the outdoors and would no more sort commas into classes than you would organize peanut butter jars in order of viscosity, the serial comma ? or "Oxford comma" ? is the final comma that comes in a sentence like this: "I met a realtor, a DJ, a surfer, and a pharmaceutical salesperson." (In this sentence, I am on The Bachelorette.) I don't typically use the serial comma here on the blog, because NPR uses AP style, which is standard for most news organizations. AP style leaves out the serial comma unless it's particularly necessary. It would dictate writing that sentence as: "I met a realtor, a DJ, a surfer and a pharmaceutical salesperson." That's what I do at work. At home, though? In correspondence, in notes to myself, in writing on cakes with icing? Serial commas. Forever.

Whether the serial comma is used is usually not a big deal ? you see lists every day both with it and without it, and it won't hang you up either way. "Please buy bread, cheese, butter and milk." "Please buy bread, cheese, butter, and milk." Either is fine.

But when it matters, it really matters.

Suppose that instead of the list of men our bachelorette met above, things went differently. Without the serial comma, she might say: "The best available men are the two tall guys, George and Pete." There, you really don't know whether George and Pete are the tall guys, or whether there are two tall guys in addition to George and Pete. You literally don't know how many men you're talking about, and while that level of confusion as to elementary facts seems like something that might actually happen on The Bachelorette, it is unfortunate in other settings. If, on the other hand, you use the serial comma, then you would write that sentence only if you meant that George and Pete were the tall guys, and if you didn't, you'd say, "I met two tall guys, George, and Pete."

Two men have just been created by that comma out of whole cloth. Boom! We've created life! Don't you feel like Dr. Frankenstein?

It's perhaps not surprising that a comma that can singlehandedly create human beings can also get people pretty wound up. Twitter went bazoo over the entire Oxford business yesterday, particularly before the clarification was made that it was just the PR department. People ? people like me ? love the serial comma. They rely on it. They feel like society's abandonment of it is a sign that all has gone haywire. They feel about it the way other people feel about newspapers, green spaces, or virtue.

The balancing act between how much rule-making you like in language and how much you like language to evolve naturally isn't necessarily the point of the serial comma debate (to me, the reasons to keep it have absolutely nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with actual utility), but that's where almost any discussion of almost any arcane point invariably winds up. Language is alive, you see, and it changes, and its beauty lies in its ability to be shaped by an entire society that calls upon its collective wisdom and experience to create a means of communication that accomplishes what it needs to AND NO THAT DOESN'T MAKE "IRREGARDLESS" OKAY AND STOP USING "LITERALLY" TO MEAN "FIGURATIVELY" I AM BEGGING YOU.

Uh-oh.

I firmly believe all of that good stuff about our living language, and yet I accidentally hit my own nerve. Love of language, it turns out, is a complicated minefield of things you care about and things you don't, and one person's explosive issues are obviously no more valid than anyone else's. Some people hate Capitalization For Cutesy Point-Making in exactly the same way I hate "irregardless," but I use it happily. Not as much as I once did, but I do. (Don't email me about "irregardless" or "literally," by the way. I glare at your spineless, weak-kneed dictionary with a judgmental, squinty eye. I do! I glare at it!)

For now, the Oxford comma lives on at Oxford. And it lives on in my heart. Life is nasty, brutish, and short (or, to introduce unnecessary ambiguity, "life is nasty, brutish and short"), and the least I can do for myself is to hold tight to the linguistic niceties about which I, for whatever reason, care. It's comforting. It's calming. And when it comes to taking a firm position about mostly unimportant debates, that's about all I can hope for."

TrilllianAstra · 02/07/2011 09:47

Fantastic BB - thanks for posting! I agree and will continue to use punctuation expressively :o

FreeButtonBee · 02/07/2011 09:48

Lawyer here. I would always go with a semicolon rather than an oxford comma when dealing with a list at the end of a sentence which I think in 99% of examples solves the ambiguity. In 1% of situations another comma may be necessary to make sense of the clause. However, in those situations I would tend to use sub-paragraphs to separate each sub-clause in order to avoid any ambiguity at all - at which point, my old mucker the semi-colon (along with the colon) comes back into play. So:

"My favourite things for breakfast are pancakes, sausages and eggs and toast." becomes:

"My favourite things for breakfast are:
(i) pancakes;
(ii) sausages; and
(iii) eggs and toast."

Maryz · 02/07/2011 10:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GoblinMarket · 02/07/2011 10:12

I do not know what it is but would never use a comma before an 'and'
Surely someone else noticed the spelling mistake of spelling mistakes higher up !

CadleCrap · 02/07/2011 10:13

Do you need a comma with but?

seeker · 02/07/2011 10:19

I can't understand why people want to get rid anything that aids clarity.

It's like "disinterested" and "uninterested". They are not synonyms. And there is no other word for "disinterested". So, by making them synonymous, we are losing a uniquely useful word. Grrrrr.

MrMan · 02/07/2011 10:57

FBB, I agree your structure is clear. However it does make the text look like a legal contract and, to my eye, God-awful ugly. A simple comma in normal text beautifully avoids most risk of misunderstanding. And surely we on MN understand the value of that Smile

OP posts:
missmiss · 02/07/2011 12:23

When I wrote my end of term reports they were re

missmiss · 02/07/2011 12:25

Bugger, posted too soon.

When I wrote my end-of-term reports they were replete with Oxford commas; so many were sent back to me by my colleagues for 'correcting' that I gave up :(

FreeButtonBee · 02/07/2011 13:01

MrMan Yes, agree it's very legal looking but if it really matters you want there to be no ambiguity and the sub-paras makes sure that there is absolutely no opportunity for misunderstanding. You'd be surprised how many lawyers don't actually know how to punctuate - it drives me mad.

Obv, this approach is not so appropriate for other circumstances and breaks up the flow of a longer paragraph of prose. I personally don't think it looks ugly; it aids clarity and understanding and frankly when you are 3/4 the way through a 200 contract at 2am, clarity is the way forward! But understand that's I'm a niche example!

BeamReach · 02/07/2011 13:54

I guess I can see the point of the oxford comma ... but feel a lot of it's usage could be avoided by reorgansing lists:

"Among those interviewed were his two ex-wives, Kris Kristofferson and Robert Duvall"

to avoid confusion that Robert Duvall and Kris Kristofferson were his ex-wives, why not:

"Among those interviewed were Kris Kristofferson, Robert Duvall and his two ex-wives"

Or

"My usual breakfast is coffee, bacon and eggs and toast" to "My usual breakfast is bacon and eggs, coffee and toast"

Then the only time you have to use it is if the list order is somehow supposed to convey priority.

eg

To my parents, Ayn Rand, and God.

Parents might be a bit dischuffed to be moved to the end of the list to clarify it....

I Love semicolons.