AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Leningrad - totally with you on the party political thing. I like politics (surprises me to say that but you should hear me shouting at the telly when Question Time is on) but I don't identify with any party. They all have good points and bad. Its a nightmare chosing a party to vote for. It does mean I just don't get anybody who seems to follow a party no matter what they do or say. Makes no sense to me at all - I don't get the need to follow the party even when it seem regardless of the policy.

Garlic - It is abusive isn't it? I just thought it was me being inadequate. Ridiculous because I know abuse when I see it - I suppose I was expecting a rational discussion, not being underminded just because I didn't agree.

how can we try and change this?can we?

Of course we can-as someone said much earlier-probably Goblinchild-there are many shades of pink and people are at different places on the scale. I am not comfortable with the deep magenta mentioned but I have no objection to other people being there, as long as they realise it is 'right for them' and not 'right for all women'.
There is room for everyone and all different views. Life would be very boring if we all thought the same. AIBU gets tough sometimes but nothing like feminism which isn't for the faint hearted!

I may be in your invisible vast swathe, Empusa. I'm not particularly engaged with burlesque but am aware of its feminist/ironic/challenging underpinnings (that's got to be the wrong word!) and I get it.

... waits for somebody to mention "empowerfulness" ...

I would agree that it won't get better until the dominant few see there is a problem and I can't see that happening.

Empusa, I think that topic would probably need a whole thread of its own.

I don't see that comment as insulting. Burlesque is a form of stripping, and people who do burlesque do tend to be fatter than other strippers, and are more likely to have alternative looks like being a goth. I thought part of the point of burlesque was that it was about fatter women rather than the thin model type?

That was me, magenta sharks and all.
Never happier than when crafting a convoluted and tortuous simile.

Is the word you are looking for 'voluptuous' MillyR, rather than fat?

exotic and HRH what about 'hide further posts from this person on this thread' (may need a shorter title) button, that you can click when you reach the point where you've had enough?

I say this because I've had run ins with people in the past, that at the time made me bloody furious, but I am actually glad I read the posts. More-often-than-not it has made me think harder about my own argument and tidy it up so it bears greater scrutiny. Occasionally though it plants a seed and makes me see things from a whole new other point of view. I wouldn't want to lose that, so I wouldn't want to hide any poster permanently. But I can see that on a thread where views are entrenched and no one's going to budge it can get tedious to read the same thing over and over so maybe you could click on the latest annoying post and then not see anything else after that. Is that possible to do MN?

Strippers don't sing or act, as a rule. And female strippers are rarely funny, political or self-parodying (at least not on purpose)

GN, I'm just going on interviews I've read with burlesque dancers, who have said that burlesque performers are strippers. They don't feel a need to make a distinction, which I respect. I don't think there is a need to make judgements about the artistic ability of strippers.

If you can do this it is a good idea-I can think of 3 straight off.I am not very good at not reading-at least 3 times I said that I was leaving a particular thread and then came back for more! Thankfully it was solved by being off line for 3 days, by which time it had finished!

OK. I was going by shows I've seen.

I should leave Empusa's subject to Empusa.

"though I am prepared to admit that I may be interpreting that denial unfairly BTW, as the word 'equality' has heavy connotations in feminist theory"

Really? I didn't realise that, could you explain it a little? Would explain why so many misunderstandings.

"It's not that they're rejecting feminist principles by refusing to identify as feminists, it's just that consider equality between the sexes as just one of the many principles they hold important in their lives. "

That does about sum it up for me.

"how can we try and change this?can we?"

I honestly don't know. I do know I feel unsafe in there. And I'm not normally bothered by debates (even pretty rough ones), in fact I'm often told off for not being able to resist them. But I feel very drained, even if I'm not actually posting. Seeing people's opinions dismissed in often unnecessarily nasty ways, and there being (what seems to be) stock responses to anyone who questions..

.. actually, here's something I'm sure everyone here has experience of. Having words like "shrill" or "nag" used to disparage the woman arguing against. It means not having to actually engage, and belittles the other person.

Sometimes I feel like that about phrases like "anti-feminist" and "rape-apologist", sometimes they are obviously accurate, but there are definitely times when they are used wrongly and to make the other person's argument seem worthless.

exotic. I have stopped saying I am leaving a thread now for this very same reason. It's like scratching an itch - you know you'll only make it worse...

"I don't see that comment as insulting. Burlesque is a form of stripping, and people who do burlesque do tend to be fatter than other strippers, and are more likely to have alternative looks like being a goth. "

So you honestly don't see that it can be meant in an extremely negative way (and I say this as a fat goth)? Personally I see nothing wrong with being a stripper, fat, or a goth However I don't feel the intent was one of celebrating them.

I don't know any Burlesque acts who strip who'd deny that they are strippers, but they are well aware that many people prefer to use the term as if it were an insult.

Wrt hide poster option - I think it would be damaging to Mumsnet's overall strength, which is lively discussion featuring a gamut of views. It's crap when you've hidden a poster, then a quarter of the ensuing responses make no sense - you end up losing interest.

We are grown-ups and ought to be able to judge when we're digging holes. Also, as we're grown-ups, we should be able to get an overly insistent poster to shut up or change tack. First admitting I only use 5 or 6 of the boards here: Feminism is the only one I know, where the same few 'overly insistent' posters dominate ... to the extent that I'm scared of naming them here!

How mad is that?

Not mad at all-I wouldn't dare name them!
It is scratching an itch.I announce I am leaving so that I can't go back-then I sneak a look later and just can't stop myself posting! Then of course they ask why I am still there!

with regard to the burlesque comments, shouldn't posters be allowed to say what they think, as long as they are not personally attacking other posters? We are all going to disagree on some things.

Empusa, I don't think the intention in making the comment is to celebrate burlesque, being fat or being a goth. I think the intention is just to be matter of fact about what burlesque is.

There is clearly a lot of art, creativity and skill put into all sorts of stripping. I'd never be able to pole dance. But when people are talking about the issue they have with stripping and why they feel negatively towards it, the art, creativity and skill is not what is being criticised.

I can't see hiding posters working. What if someone is insulting you and everyone else can read it and you have no idea it is going on?

Hah! Yes, HRH/HJ, I wanted to keep my old name(s) as I have through a decade of posting on various forums. Only this one forced me.

It is bonkers. If there weren't a feminist board here, I'd be happy enough to discuss the same things as and when. I'd probably end up in a head-to-head with Dittany, Sakura, Milly & co from time to time. But it wouldn't feel so closed somehow. I voted for a specific section. I regret it.