AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Hey, I'm being polite here; I think a reasonable discussion is going on for the main. I did the resumed version because I wondered if there were other avenues to explore.

MarySue:

1. Define the "nutty ideas and theories" you don't agree with. It's impossible to answer such a charge written so vaguely.
2. Define the comments you have read that have convinced you that feminists hate men. Again I can't debate this unless you do.

10. I wasn't trying to be patronising, and I am sorry if I gave that impression. I just get frustrated at the comment I receive all the time "you are a feminist? But you're married, you've got children, you don't wear dungarees, you seem so reasonable, I mean you're not shrill or anything. You even shave your legs for goodness sake." Which is then often followed by "but you're not one of those radical man-hating feminists though are you?" This is why I made this point. If you answer my above 8 and 9 I assume I will understand why you are so opposed to feminist ideas. 11. Define the "strawman" arguments I have used and I'll respond. I am at loss otherwise. 12. Define "harder to defend issues" also please. 13. Obviously I don't agree. Personally I think gender roles are a product of both biology and socialisation and I think history proves this. What do I mean? What a "proper" or "good" woman/man should be like is different at different times and in different places and in different classes. My grandmother for example refused to wear makeup nor dye her hair because she said that "decent" women did not, only sexworkers. According to her, this was the view of all her friends and family also. I could give more examples, but I am assuming that you are more than intelligent enough to get my drift without me going on and on. 14."Patriarchy-schmatriarchy." Again, I can't answer that unless you tell me what you dislike about the term and why you think it is inappropriate.

Catitainahatita, I'll address those points further later (though many I have addressed already in this thread) when I have the time, but I just wanted to say to you, SAF or anyone else, I'm not trying to be rude, or attacking anyone. I'll try harder to make that clear.

Briefly though, I wasn't so much suggesting you were patronizing, as the idea that if it wasn't for that damn media we'd all see feminism is ideal for us. Like many I'm intelligent enough to have made my mind up about many things that are counter to what the media feeds me. And tbh I think the media in general is generally pro-feminism, can you give me examples of bad press or misrepresentation?

feminism great idea but its gone wrong it hasnt given us the choices we wanted, it now means we have to be great mums, have fantastic jobs, keep the house clean and still look good, if we are stay at home mums we're 'just a mum' if we work its cruel to our kids, im sure there are more women out there than admit it that would love to just be able to stay at home and look after the kids and cook dinner for our husbands! yes there are women that dont want kids and want to work or want kids and to work but i think its put more pressure on us women! but I am obviously very glad that we have a lot more rights than before

yummystepford
I can understand that you might feel like this - but why are you blaming feminism and/or feminists?

MarySue: I never said anything about the media; I think SAF said that the media was not the source of (what I consider) misconceptions about feminism. As I said, my initial comment was made because of the "bra-burning, hairy legged, man-hating, shrill" things people have said to me quite often.

Anyway, for your examples. Since you asked about the media I shall give you examples from the media. I'm giving you one from 2008, one from the 70s and one from 1910ish just so you can see that there is a long tradition of the idea of a "feminazi" to repeat something very recently said to me about mayself:

1. See the cartoon of Harriet Harman from the Times available here The blog I have taken the image from is a feminist one, but I don't subscribe to the Times and don't have access to the weekend issue of 12th July 2008.
2. The Two Ronnies "The Worm that Turned" perhaps the origin of the feminazi idea
3. And to see how far back in the public imagination this type of image goes, here a page with a couple about the suffragettes www.my-english-courses.com/projetseleves/suffragettes2/anti.htm

Sorry about the mangled prose there.

This
"there is a long tradition of the idea of a "feminazi" to repeat something very recently said to me about mayself"

should read

"there is a long tradition of the idea of a "feminazi", to repeat something very recently said to me about myself."

Oh and, I forgot. MarySue, I know you are completely able to make up your own mind about feminism. I want you and everyone else to do exactly that. This is why I think such debates are so important. You and I might have made up our minds about this stuff ages ago, but some people are still trying to decide. Thus I think it is important that feminism is discussed and criticised on basis of concrete things and not just dismissed as a bunch of batty, unkempt and shrill harpies. (To quote another comment I have received).

i am not a feminist. i am not an anti feminist either. i am a non feminist

I realise that SAF has probably gone now but I just wanted to comment on this statement:

"on a last note the idea that you would reject the whole of feminism because you don't like a vocal few posters on mn seems utterly mad to me."

I suspect that several of us don't venture onto the feminism threads often and don't get to discuss the subject much anywhere else. I can understand how it might well put you off the notion of feminism (without actually changing your views on equality and women's rights) if much of what you say is shot down, or pulled apart by a vocal and seemingly much more knowledgeable few. You might well think it isn't a group you want to be part of. MN can have a big influence if it is the only place you can actually discuss issues you have been thinking about.

It doesn't seem mad to me.I was secure in the fact that Iwas a feminist, but I shall think twice before I venture into any more MN discussions on it and I certainly don't like the MN version of it.

"Feminism contains too many nutty ideas and theories I just don't agree with. I'll stick with being pro-equality."

MarySue - like what?

If you read some of the threads on MN you will find them seeker.

I know exactly where MarySue is coming from, she has read them and she has had her own words twisted out of all recognition.

But I do read them, and I don't see the nutty ideas and theories. And nobody will tell me what they are! Presumably that means that I agree with them so don;t think they are nutty. But I don;t think I believe anything that would outrage someone so much that they would feel obliged to disassociate themselves for feminism.

Try fear of men for starters-and try telling them it is sheer paranoia. I think it was the one I got mauled on-I will keep looking.

I think I was more likely thinking of family heirarchy that brings in all about the patriarchy that I hate.

I haven't disassociated myself from feminism, or the feminist boards on MN.
I do see the movement as a spectrum though, shading from the palest pink through to intense magenta.
Some are firmly and happily embedded at the deep pink, far end of the scale, others are at different points along it.
Some are moving quickly, some very slowly and others don't think they are changing at all. I feel I am in the middle, occasionally sliding up and down a little. I don't feel at all comfortable at the magenta end, and doubt I will ever change my mind and go there.

My feeling exactly Goblinchild.

I would never describe myself as a feminist, ime it's a club for White middle-class women who are slightly out of touch.
Extremely rich upper-class women don't care about it ( why would they - too busy enjoying themselves and counting their money ) and I've yet to meet a lower working-class women who identifies with feminism.
The final nail in it's coffin for me was a leading feminist wrote ( only last week I think ) that women should be openly talking about the female orgasm.
I mean really - if men sat around taking about what it feels like to have a wank we'd think they were a bit odd - but women should be talking about it a lot more openly. >

exoticfruits - I've now read 'fear of men" all the way through and still don't understand!

There were differences of opinion - particularly about art criticism(!) but I didn't see anyone being mauled. Someone challenged you about something you said - but the discussion moved on. It looked to me as if people were largely agreeing with you - in fact there seemed to be to be a lot of agreement on the thread.

Personally, I think feminism was adopted by as a strategy for the elites to gain more power. By doubling the amount of productive people in the workplace, they could keep the wages artificially low, and ensure mothers could not spend as much time raising their kids. The state then has the more of time to brainwash the kids without the mother's influence.