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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

1001 replies

seeker · 29/06/2011 23:37

.....not a feminist?

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 11:10

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swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 11:11

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Goblinchild · 02/07/2011 11:14

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Female.svg

I want to photoshop this now so that it looks like a pink pacman with teeth.
With a little something caught in the jaws. Smile
I've been called all sorts as well SAF, and all over the boards by a wide range of people. It's the risk you take talking to strangers.

Goblinchild · 02/07/2011 11:15

'and it's all your fault for being sarcastic, wine guzzling smart arses.'

Gin guzzling, please.

swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 11:20

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lemonmuffin · 02/07/2011 11:22

"Apparently I am 'the wrong type of feminist' and have actaully been told that I am not welcome on a feminist thread today(by 'the right sort of feminist' and self appointed controller). "

I've been reading that thread, exoticfruits, and was struck by what an arrogant post that was. Grin

sunshineandbooks · 02/07/2011 11:34

exotic we've discussed this at length on other posts so I apologise for the de ja vu experience you'll undoubtedly experience (Wink) but as yours is a viewpoint that I think many people share, I think it's always worth repeating. I may not be able to change your mind but hopefully discussing the matter will make others think a little harder about the dynamics of an abusive relationship.

Violence is at the very end of the abusive spectrum. It usually follows a significant period of 'grooming', resulting in the victim often being unable to see the violence as 100% wrong and react in an appropriate way. If an abuser hit his girlfriend during their dating period, most women would walk away at that point.

1/3 of abuse beings in pregnancy, when a woman is at her most vulnerable and most likely to try her best to keep the family together for the sake of the child. The 'sake of the child' is often the same reason women stay once children are in the picture. We are often told about the outcomes for single parent families, 'broken britain' etc etc. Because violence tend to be broken up with sometimes quite long periods of 'normality', women are reluctant to subject their children to these outcomes for what they see as something that is only a problem periodically.

You are right about there being 'red flags' that women can spot earlier on, however (hough it is worth bearing in mind that many abusers are very clever and can keep these quite well hidden). I am truly saddened by the amount of women who are not aware of these signs. And this includes intelligent, articulate well-educated and quite often successful career women. I think it's worth asking why so many women (1 in 4) don't spot them before they fall victim.

I believe that part of the reason for this is because of the way some of these red flags are presented in society. They make the current generation of young women particularly vulnerable IMO.

Sometimes the red flags are normalised and made 'sexy' (e.g. violence towards women and the objectification of women being glamorised in music videos. The fact that nearly all adverts for cleaning products feature a woman).

Other times they are presented as desirable (e.g. the man who goes to extreme lengths to demonstrate his love toward the object of his desire - in the film/book/TV she always reciprocates in the end, but in RL this would actually be stalking and seriously creepy). Mad, bad behaviour is sold as exciting and rogues presented as "all they need is the love of a good woman" - this is why so many women still believe the lie that if they could just try harder/be better" he will change.

Parenthood can often turn a relationship very unbalanced. Because of problems with the availability of childcare and the paying of it, many women find themselves being left with no option but to be a SAHM or to take a job that fits around childcare. This can, of course, apply to men too if they are the lower earner and if they want to be the primary carer, but even in 2011 this is unusual compared to the number of women in this situation. In a healthy relationship this can cause problems if money if a problem and if there is a clash of communication. In a relationship where abuse is a factor, it becomes a tool to subjugate the woman even further and this needn't involve any punches being thrown or any name-calling. Yet a woman will often be told how lucky she is to have a DH who can provide for her and the DC, which makes her doubt her own judgment.

Most abusers are adept at manipulation. AFter a long period of grooming they will do something that shows their true colours, and this is actually unlikely to be violence at this stage. It is more likely to be a show of temper or a minor act of controlling behaviour (e.g. insisting on picking you up after a night out 'to check you get home safely' when it's actually about insisting that he knows where you are, who you ar with and can cross-examine for details of the evening). This is the only time when it is easy to walk away, because once this first act is forgiven, the line in the sand has been redrawn and perceptions have changed. The next line can be drawn even further in and the victim might not even notice. Yet how many times are women told "you can't break up a relationship over 'that'". "Major over-reaction!" "Everyone deserves a second chance" "It's not like he hit you or anything"

If an abuser is called on their controlling behaviour, more often they will apologise, then once the victim's anger has subsided they will turn the situation around and say that the woman standing up for herself was bullying him and he was just fighting back against bullying. Because non-bullies don't like to be accused of bullying, the next time there is an argument or disagreement the victim is at such pains to ensure that nothing they say or do is 'bullying' that she are unable to mount an effective defence.

By the time that first punch is thrown, a victim does not have a normal perception of relationships anymore. That's why so many do not leave.

If you have been unfortunate enough to grow up in a household where abuse was a feature while you were a child, your perceptions are even more off to begin with, but everything i've presented above can apply to women brought up in a happy, functional family environment. Modelling good behaviour is not enough to inform people how to avoid bad behaviour.

sunshineandbooks · 02/07/2011 11:37

And before anyone attempts to flame me for using she for the victim, he for the perpetrator, I have done that deliberately because we are discussing women who do not leave and fail to protect their children.

Goblinchild · 02/07/2011 11:44

I wish I could remember where I read someone describing having been in an abusive relationship with children.
She said something along the lines of
'My children do not come from a broken home. My home was broken before I left, and it was only in leaving with my children and beginning again that we became whole.'

exoticfruits · 02/07/2011 11:51

I know it isn't simplistic. People give off all sorts of messages that they are not conscious of and abusers will home in on the vulnerable.

I get the 'lame ducks' -male and female and have had to learn how to distance myself for self preservation. I attract them-male and female.

I remember as a student 4 of us were in our flat and one was having an argument with her boyfriend, he got frustrated and hit her, not hard-just a slap on the arm. The rest of us were horrified and would have finished with him there and then. She didn't and has now been married a long time-all seems fine- but I suppose it was easier for us because we weren't emotionally involved. I think that I am too glib on the subject and it isn't as easy as I think. I dare say I give out a message that I wouldn't be abused and they steer clear.
If people were to argue in a reasonable balanced way I would think about things more and maybe change my mind-but not when I get a public lecture and every statement is rubbished.

I love the sticker idea.

I've been reading that thread, exoticfruits, and was struck by what an arrogant post that was

It was personal animosity-she can't stand me! Not worth worrying about but I would like to claim a sticker. Grin

swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 11:59

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exoticfruits · 02/07/2011 12:29

it is so easy to sit in an ivory tower and think we know what we would do in a situation or to think we even understand the situation.

I think this is my main fault-unless you have done it you can't really say.

swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 12:50

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swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 12:54

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youarekidding · 02/07/2011 13:13

I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist. I wouldn't say I wasn't.

I agree with the principles behind feminism, I also believe in the principles behind other things.

I wouldn't say though I am active in installing the principles but would point out where inequality is.

Maybe I'm an equalitarian?

MarySueFTW · 02/07/2011 13:49

Oh, another thing that gets me.. I've had the following exchange, and seen others have it online so many times...

'Would you call yourself a feminist?'
"Er, no.'
"What, don't you like like women?' or 'Well, you can always give back the right to vote I guess' etc

Aieee! No, I hate myself and wish I didn't have the right to vote. Oh and can you fit that I am a rape-enabler in there too somehow? With logic like that, they wonder why I don't want the association! Why are you so needy for me to be in your club, or that I ascribe to your ideology? Worse than Jehovah's Witnesses, at least they say 'ok, thanks' then go away!

(Sorry to any feminists that would never say that, I try not to generalize, but it had to be said.)

swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 13:54

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MarySueFTW · 02/07/2011 14:17

Well I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me...

swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 15:06

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swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 15:07

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Catitainahatita · 02/07/2011 17:30

Please correct me for any mistakes or misrepresentations. I would like to present the following arguments that have been used to sustain the position of not wanting to be called a feminist.

  1. Women are just as violent/nasty/abusive as men.
  2. Feminists are sometimes nasty to other women.
  3. Feminists tell me what to do/tell me I am not welcome/ tell me I'm the wrong type of feminist
  4. Feminists hate men.
  5. Men are suffering because of feminism
  6. Feminism has a bad name and I don't want to be associated with it.
  7. I don't believe in feminism, I believe in equality.

The answers from the self declared feminists seem to have gone thus:

  1. Yes; but in different ways and different situations. Feminists focus on the ways women suffer violence and will try to understand why women are themselves violent. They say studying the same phenonoma in men is not their business.
  2. All groups and communities are made up with different people. Some feminists may well be nasty to other women, but this doesn't undermine feminism as whole any more than various mothers being nasty to other mothers on-line means that all mothers are nasty.
  3. Feminism isn't a religion with a recognised head honcho; or a political party with a published agenda to uphold. It is a loose group of women (and some men) who share many but not all the same goals but who differ among themselves about how to reach them.
  4. Feminists love men; they hate the system which ascribes privileges and opportunitites in life to the accident of a person's birth. They argue that gender and gender roles are a principally a product of socialisation.
  5. Patriarchal society is unfair to men and women since it favours certain gender stereotypes of other when dishing out privileges and opportunitites. Those who don't fit are discriminated against. Those who are used to benefiting this system often are opposed to its destruction and will often argue that it is inexistent. They sometimes see feminism as a threat to their wellbeing.
  6. The bad name is due to the hostile reception feminism has received and receives still. But if you don't want to be called one that's fine.
  7. Feminism isn't anti men (see point 4). It isn't a crusade to give women more privileges and opportunities than men, but rather to even things out. It wants to change society structures and norms to achieve that. If you believe in equality then you are subscribing to some of the same ideas as feminists do. If you believe equality has been achieved, they would argue you were mistaken.

Obviously I'm with the feminist camp as I declared earlier. I would be very much interested in hearing the counter version of this post from someone from the other side though. Perhaps then the debate can continue and explore other avenues.

Omigawd · 02/07/2011 18:04

I would add:

  1. Some feminists are as rabid/fanatic/etc as the worst extremists anywhere and I don't believe in their agenda/want to be associated with them.
MarySueFTW · 02/07/2011 18:08

You missed some.

  1. Feminism contains too many nutty ideas and theories I just don't agree with. I'll stick with being pro-equality.
  2. Feminists always claim they don't hate men, but whenever I read what they say, especailly in their own little forums, it really looks like a lot of them do. For that reason I'm out.
10. I think it's a load of hooey when they say their bad image is entirely down to the media. It's patronizing to suggest I am so dumb and easily brainwashed, and have never actually investigated their beliefs with an open mind myself. And it doesn't explain the disillusioned ex-feminists either. 11. When they make lists of why people don't want to be labelled a feminist, they use straw man oops straw person arguments and say nice things that don't tally with my own experience, ie that they are just super keen on those lovely men, honest. 12. And leave out harder to defend issues, like how they 'fight for their side, right or wrong' which will never be the way I approach anything. 13. I just don't think gender differences are a social construct. In fact viva la difference as far as I'm concerned. 14.Patriarchy-schmatriarchy.
swallowedAfly · 02/07/2011 18:15

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MarySueFTW · 02/07/2011 18:25

I thought we were starting to get along.. sad face.

Seriously, have fun in advance search mode, whatever that is, but maybe someone else could tell me if I have been 'rabid' or 'rude?' I really thought it was great this thread had got so long and people were being civil and reasonable. Hmm.

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