AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

I know this post isn't really about feminism, but I've got to reply to your post, SAF, at 20:23. I tried to pursue this on the Feminism board, with you and others, but my vulnerabilities have been used against me there and I can't take it.

My mother aided & abetted my psycho father's unrelenting abuse against all of us - Mum included - and particularly against me (I'm the eldest, it's common). In recent years I've had some gut-wrenching conversations about this with her. She cites fear of Dad, social disapproval, financial worries, etc, as her reasons for staying with him. But they're not the reasons. She adored my father - worshipped him, in fact. She lights up when she talks about him. They had great sex. She resented having children because we interfered with her relationship.

Now, I do understand the dynamics of abusive relationships - I've had a few. I realise he ratcheted up his abuse after she gave birth. I suspect her childhood was not as fine she remembers it, since it's obvious to me that Dad abused her from their very first date and she took it. I understand Mum and her marriage better than she understands herself, I suspect.

But the fact remains that, if forced by the authorities to choose between her husband and her children, she would have chosen him. If the solution had been to "remove the man" she would have resented us bitterly for it - and would have taken him back. For all the empathy you and others have for abused women, I think this is a not-uncommon aspect you don't want to face.

I'd like everyone, male and female, to know more about the mechanics of abuse. I'm overjoyed that it's now being taught in schools. I'd also like every woman to have a feminist conscience (consciousness?) because - human relationships being complex as they are - that's the best chance women like my mother and I have of knowing when we're being abused and knowing it's wrong.

Hope that made some sense.

That's a very moving post, garlic.

It makes sense to me, garlicnutter. Human relationships are complex and can't be dismissed in simplistic terms. It is sad that your vulnerabilities have been used against you, you would only get support if you were saying what people want to hear-if not- you are 'fair game'.

You are banging your head against a brick wall MarySue, and I think that your words have been twisted out of all recognition.

I understand, it's heartbreaking.

"I tried to pursue this on the Feminism board, with you and others, but my vulnerabilities have been used against me there and I can't take it."

Hmmm, link? Curious as to how that story could have been addressed by anything other than understanding.

marysue really you shoudl do a bit more research, not jsut look at a few stats. if you read further you will find that many women its about neglect, its about the partner they are with they have often been charged with their partner who has been abusing the children they relationship is abusive and more often that not they are a step parent

men perpetrate far more physical, psychological and sexual violence than women do. that is not to say women do not. so keep coming up with you stats but once you research this subject further you will see the bigger picture, you will see how the system and courts work against women (based on bowbly's theories all the blame is placed on the mothers) and how our societies have allowed violence towards women and children to go unpunished and this comes down to the fact we live in societies where men are superior they still hold far more position in law making, in politics, in the judicial system, its changing so things are now coming to light and until women are truly equal and there is no need for men to feel threatened, to feel ownership over women then the violence at the shocking high rate it is at will not change

a man could still rape his wife in this country until 1991 that is how slow things are changing

SAF, I was replying to your post here at 20:23 but, on re-reading it, have misunderstood it. You said "(it should be the men who are removed)" but now see you were referring to an alternative pov, not your own.

All the rest is about past conversations elsewhere, and I'm not going back to find out who said what! Sorry for misreading you.

garlic regardless of what else is going on in this thread I just want to say how sorry I am you had to go through that . Not that the sympathy of a complete internet stranger would make any difference to you I'm sure, but I cannot read that and fail to be saddened by it.

Despite my feminist credentials and despite the fact that I DO believe that more violence is committed against females by males than by males against females, I ALSO believe that the sort of scenario that happened to you is probably a lot more common than anyone realises. Having been a foster carer, my personal experience bears this out too. I think when women ARE violent (whether that's emotionally or physically) it is all too often directed against their children and I accept that female parental abuse probably IS underrepresented in the figures.

Other posters have made my arguments for me about the breakdown of abuse (e.g. neglect, emotional abuse, physical violence, sexual abuse) so I won't rehash all that. However, in 2009 there were 41,800 active cases in child protection services in England and Wales. 21,000 sex offences against children were recorded by police. The gender distribution of victims for sexual abuse was 12% girls, 8% boys (Baker and Duncan) but I am unable to find figures for gender of other forms of abuse as these are not published. Many numerous studies throughout the world show that when it comes to sexual abuse it is perpetrated far more by male offenders (though I am prepared to accept that female offenders may be underrepresented), so given that in the UK sex offences seem to account for half of all abuse crimes against children, I'd say it's probably about 50/50 perpetration by gender, though it's impossible to tell with the available statistics I agree. Either way, it's appalling.

Every two weeks in the UK:
4 women are killed by their partners/former partners
2 children are killed by an adult (usually a parent)
1 man is killed by his partner/ex partner

I think that speaks for itself.

Obvious cock up here:

Despite my feminist credentials and despite the fact that I DO believe that more violence is committed against females by males than by males against females

which should obviously read:
Despite my feminist credentials and despite the fact that I DO believe that more violence is committed against females by males than by females against males.

I blame the

My father didn't neglect me back in the 60s, or in the 70s. He saw his role as the traditional one of earning enough money to house, feed, clothe and entertain his children. We spent time as a family at the weekends.
My mother saw her role as looking after the children and the house and her husband, not necessarily in that order.
To see our relationships as neglect is anachronistic. If they were newlyweds now, their relationships would be different.

Swallowedafly - "if it means self reported neglect issues and emotional abuse i reckon at least half of us would claim our mothers subjected us to that so it's unsurprising."

"lets face it a neglectful father was pretty much a cultural norm in the days most of us grew up in."

I don't mean to twist your words in any way (though your twisting of mine was egregious) but to be clear, are you saying you would have accused your mother of being neglectful and emotionally abusive, and also your father was neglectful?' If so I'm sorry to hear that, but I don't think it was 'the norm' in past. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

I don't think anyone believes women commit more acts of violence against males than vice versa. One of the reasons some people are put off by feminism is the perceived exaggerations and the roping in of the good men with the minority of bad ones, even if it's just a lazy generalization (which it often isn't).

And the argument that 'feminism means equality' is proved fallacious when injustices against men are not only ignored (it's reasonable that a disabled rights group wouldn't equally fight for the rights of Palestinians, for example) but actively undermined and discredited if they conceivably affect women - eg the right for women to lie about a child's paternity for example. I've read articles by feminists defending that as a 'woman's ancient right' and that's an ideal, indefensible example of 'batting for our side, right or wrong.'

First of all, Garlicnutter your post was very moving. I am sorry that you had to live through that. My DH suffered at the hands of a violent father. He still finds it difficult to forgive his mother for aiding and abetting the violence (perhaps because his father was abusive to his children but -as far as DH remembers- never laid a hand on his mother).

MarySue: I don't doubt your statistics. I would however suggest that the fact that the majority of child abuse appears to be perpetrated by women merely reflects the fact that in the majority of cases women are in the main care giver in the family and in general spend much more time with the children than the father.

Finally I unsure as to why the fact that women can be violent (which I am explictly saying to make my post clear) invalidates or undermines the tenents of feminism. As far as I am aware, the thing which has become clear when studying violence against women compared to that against men is that men and women suffer violence in different ways. Men are more likely to suffer violence at the hands of strangers; women at the hands of people they know, often a husband, brother or father.

A study by the UN in 2005 of the statistical data on violence available on a world wide level concluded the following:

"These studies indicate that between 10 percent and 60 percent of women who have ever been
married or partnered in an intimate relationship have experienced at least one incident of
physical violence from a current or former intimate partner. Most studies estimate a lifetime
prevalence of partner violence between 20 percent and 50 percent. Although women can also
be violent, and abuse exists in some same-sex relationships, data from national crime surveys,
the United States National Violence Against Women Survey, police, hospital and court
records, and clinical and shelter sample surveys show women are overwhelmingly the victims
of intimate partner violence and significantly more likely than men to be injured during
attacks by intimates.
Sexual assault and abuse of women by non-intimate partners has also been proven to be much
more common than previously thought. Surveys find that between 20 and 40 percent of
women have experienced sexual assault by men other than partners in their adult lifetime.
Surveys also show that experiences of sexual violence often begin at an early age. A review
of 25 studies worldwide indicates that 11 to 32 percent of women report that they
experienced childhood sexual abuse." ¨link here

In the terms of interpartner violence, the Canadian statistics show how women seem to be victims of domestic violence more than men, although this could be explained by the fact that men are less likely to make a complaint of this nature.

Spousal violence (includes common-law couples) from the 2009 crime statistics

36% ? The percentage of female victims of spousal violence who report abuse to police. The equivalent number for men is 17%.

305 per 100,000 population ? The rate of police-reported spousal violence against female victims in 2007. For males, the rate is 67 per 100,000. More than 8 of every 10 victims of spousal violence are female.

13% ? The percentage of female victims of spousal violence who were victims of major assault in 2007. The corresponding percentage for men is 23%. The difference may be due, in part, to the fact that women were more likely to use a weapon when assaulting their spouse, whereas men were more likely to rely on physical strength.

8% ? The percentage of female victims of spousal violence who were victims of criminal harassment (stalking) in 2007, representing 2,565 women. In comparison, there were 326 male victims of criminal harassment by a spouse that year (5% of male victims of spousal violence). Stalking was much more likely among ex-spouses than among current spouses.

Source: Family Violence in Canada: A Statistical Profile, October 15, 2009.

www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/2009/smr08_136_2009-eng.htm

You also have to take into account that statistics for domestic violence where men are the victims include male perpetrators (in same-sex relationships).

"If you're not with me, you're against me" has always been the excuse of despots for their crimes, MarySue.

SAF et al, I agree the 'traditional' family model resulted in a distant father being the norm, and also that things have changed to the extent that we'd now say many of those fathers were emotionally neglectful. It's great to see young men having more obvious, and joyful, involvement with their children. This change is very recent. The old model, therefore, still influences much of our policy and social expectations. People still coo "Isn't he good" about men who actually pull their weight in the family; adverts still show mostly mothers with their children; "single parent" still calls a female image to mind.

The man we'd now call a disengaged father was called a devoted father 40 years ago. Forty years can look like forever when you're twenty - but the men who make the big decisions were brought up in the old model. It takes a lot to shift that kind of thinking and, meanwhile, the old ideas persist.

Thank you, sunshine :) And lol at your erratum!

Interesting post, Catitainahatita, though I'm too tired to absorb it properly! Difficult to know whether police-reported statistics offer a true picture of the gender difference with domestic violence, as one imagines men would be even more reluctant to report it than women (and even more likely to be dismissed by police if they tried to.)

I believe I've seen that the rate of DV in gay male couples is roughly the same as in hetero, but can't remember where.

I was just looking at the info re under-reporting of rapes in the Stern Review and, incidentally, found out that raping a man only became a crime in England in 1994!

1994? That is so shocking. Also Disgusting.

So The Patriarchy outlawed raping the wife three years before outlawing raping a man?

I think you'll find plenty of feminists arguing that the patriarchy makes things tougher for men than they need to be, as well as for women. Stereotyping hurts lots of people.

*not necessarily the same things