AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

no you do not understand violent relationships because its not about walking away, many have no where to go as everyone has been cut off, they have no money and if there are children they can't as they are then left in danger, you may have no sympathy and that says a lot about you and how you feel towards women but you do not understand the dynamics if you did you would not be making that statement as you would know that is simply not true

and was it you that posted a thread in relationships recently about men suffering domestic violence?

Ah, I got into trouble with this argument on the feminist board just a couple of days ago. It's my "internalised misogyny" that makes me think like that, apparently.
I consider myself an "equalist" and am no lover of dogma no matter who is spouting it.

My post was a response to Goblinchild 20:28, just in case anyone wonders.

Ooops, no it wasn't. Slow typing, was Goblinchild at 20:17. Sorreeeeee.

Goblin I think it's a fair point. I know it's very very difficult to understand unless you've been through it or are somehow involved in the field. Unfortunately, I don't think I am articulate enough to explain it to you. I don't have a problem with people not 'getting it'; my problem is when people direct all that anger against the woman for not leaving instead of directing it at the man who has caused the problem in the first place.

What the children need definitely needs to come first, before either parent. If that means removing the children because the mother is failing to protect, ok. But seeing as the whole problem has been created by the violent perpetrator, wouldn't it be better to permanently remove him (for the sake of this example) from the home - then mother and DC are protected.

Most studies show that women don't have a problem kicking the perpetrator out, it's keeping him away that is the problem. He gives it a day or two for his victim to calm down, then he comes round contrite, full of apologies (if she still believes them) or saying he knows its over and fair enough but he really wants to come in and talk about it, or begging to see the kids, and before she knows it he has manipulated her into a situation where he's back. And because society is always telling women that they should separate their relationship from the abusive partner from the perpetrators relationship with the DC, she has to keep those lines of communication open and herself vulnerable to it.

The longer a DV survivor keeps her abuser away, the greater chance she has of keeping him away permanently. Often, it can take several months for the effects of what is often akin to PTSD to alleviate enough for her to see clearly and reassert her independence and boundaries.

With refuges closing and benefits cut, how is she supposed to do that? Where can she go?

If social services/police/courts had the power to forcibly evict abusers and keep them away indefinitely, with contact set up automatically at a contact centre independent of the parent with care, a lot more victims would cease to be victims and become survivors. It would also send out a very clear message that abuse is not to be tolerated. The current message is that if a woman has been abused so much she can no longer stand up for herself, she will be punished for that inability to stand up for herself while her children are removed and the violent perpetrator receives... nothing.

internalised misogyny?

Like having the wrong sort of glands that make you fat but it's not your fault?
Have you considered an operation?

pass the gin Carruthers! bloody hil-ari-ous. honestly had to go to the loo to avoid a wee escape.

I understand completely. I feel sympathy for women who have to go through this with their spouses, but fortunately I'm not one of them.
No, instead I grew up with an emotionally and physically abusive mother who used the courts to get her way and have my loving father kicked out of his home for no good reason other than he dared to stand up for himself finally.
I was the lucky one to get out of there at the age of 16. If it wasn't for the fact my equally abusive grandmother had moved in after my father left, I probably wouldn't have been brave enough to leave.

Abuse towards children is about 50/50 by gender I believe MarySue, although if you're talking about sexual abuse then the proportion of male perpetrators is far higher.

Also consider that children tend to spend more time with women than with men. Most primary carers in a relationship are female, the vast majority of single parents are female, teaching is a very female heavy profession, and I think more out-of-school clubs/activities are run by women.

What that suggests to me is that both men and women abuse children but men are more likely to do so because the figures are about even despite the fact that men have far less time with children.

Any other questions I have failed to answer?

I see the bun fighting is in full swing. You've got to love MN; a top place to have an argument about absolutely everything.

I don't think you are being unreasonable OP: you can make your own mind up on the matter. I am sure you are more than capable of doing so.

However, I thought I'd explain my reasons for calling myself a feminist, in case you are interested.

1. I want women and men to have equal rights and equal opportunities in life.
2. I don't think this is currently the case and I think that part of the reason for this lies in the roles we as a society have assigned to men and women in society. (Other reasons are to do with race, class, sexuality and varying physical abilities not directly relating to being of one particular sex.) I think both men and women suffer as a result all on a varying scale and depending on their own circumstances.
3. There are groups, people and activists who dedicate themselves to camapigning for equal rights and opportunities for people of different classes, races sexualities and abilities. I don't see why there shouldn't also be one for women also? Or men for that matter.
4. I want work to change society so people have equal rights and opportunities. To do this I have chosen to direct my finite energies to the campaign for sex equality and for the end to stereotyping/limiting people by virtue their sex. This doesn't mean I don't support any of the other groups nor their causes. In fact, I find them complementary to may aims and hope that the other groups feel the same.

I find that not all people who call themselves feminist define themselves in exactly the same way and I am fine about that. I like a good discussion and find that encountering opinions different than my own force me to continually rethink my outlook on life and the world.

red

I didn't say I had no sympathy. My exact words were "my sympathy sadly ebbs when they don't leave after the first or second incident. I don't care about their excuses, they are adults who choose to stay with a violent partner."

Harsh maybe, and I later added there were sometimes mitigating circumstances (like literally nowhere to go) but it is true to say my sympathy for many domestic abuse victims, male or female, begins to wane from 100% if after the first couple of incidents they don't start planning their escape.

My brother, who I mentioned had a kettle of scalding water thrown over him by his wife while he was sleeping, soon left (and there was a child, the reason he stuck it out so long) If he had stayed, and continued to be attacked, I'd be ffs, what do you expect? Leave her!

but telling a friend/family member to leave is not the same as understanding what is actually going on

if a women is in a violent relationship and starts to go to counselling, unless her life is really in danger plans are made to move forward, to get her and the children out safely and under no circumstances let it be known that is what she is doing but first before those plans can be made is to make the women understand that she is in a violent relationship adn the blame is solely on her partner. the vast majority of women that are in violent relationships who are going to counselling go to fix their problems, their anger issues they have been so manipulated and controlled that they can not even see the truth anymore

read up a bit, society do not take violence towards women seriously enough if they did 2 women a week would not die at the hands of their partner or ex partner

and if you want to bring up figures regarding men a dv, read a little further into it, understand the dynamics are very different, its not usually based around control it is fear of being control, its very unusual to hear of men beign attacked by ex partners once they leave, it is happening and men shoudl be helped but it is now where near on the same scale teh stats that you are reading, dig a bit deeper adn they will often show up that these men have actually been the perpetrators of the violence

I agree with MarySueFTW to an extent. The issue is not domestic violence, it is much bigger than that - there is problem with violence in all areas of society. I don't think you can single out one type of violence as inherently worse than another. Being beaten or murdered isn't any worse for women than it is for men.

I don't actually agree that women who stay with abusive partners deserve less sympathy because I understand how paralysing it to be in that situation where you have been isolated and mistreated for so long that you believe that it is all your own fault and you deserve it. However, I am pretty sure that men can be in that position too and in one sense it is worse for them because they are lead to believe that they should be able to stand up to a woman. They have the power, so they are told (and actually that is what the feminists have been telling them too, this isn't just a macho thing coming from other men), and yet they are unable to make it stop any more easily than women.

I was talking to some women from Shoreditch Sisters WI today. Some of them went on the Slut Walk and they invited men along too - who were quite happy to come along to make the point that real men don't grope.

I am not a feminist.

To which the response is always "But all feminism means is that you want equality. Surely you want equality?" But in fact the party line is that:

-All differences between the sexes are a societal construct and have no basis in biology

-All porn is harmful to all women

-Every decision you make must take into account whether you are advancing women's rights

etc.

So I am not a feminist. Or else just a crap one

@IWNCNWAG

I agree, I don't think the personal should be political at all.

Who says those things and who put them in charge anyway? There's no Ayatollah Pope Supreme Grand Mistress of Feminism who issues decrees stating 'you must believe X'.

That's what I really struggle with, the idea that you can say 'I'm not a feminist because I don't agree with something one person who is a feminist says'.

Swallowedafly - "if it's still acceptable to make a joke about giving the wife a slap when you get home..."

Do you live in 1973? Please point me to any example of a man making such a joke (eh, maybe Roy Chubby Brown says similar, but he is vastly outnumbered by the women that still think any reference to 'Doing A Bobbit' is hysterical)

sunshineandbooks, where did you get your stats on who abuses children more? Because I've scoured the net and come up empty, though I would genuinely like to know the UK figures. While you are nearly right to say UK kids were equally likely to be killed by mother or father, statistics on abuse for the US are

40.5% of all child abuse is committed solely by biological mothers
17.7% of all child abuse is committed solely by biological fathers
19.3% of child abuse is committed by both the mother and the father
6.4% of child abuse is committed by the mother and some other individual
1.0% of child abuse is committed by the father and some other individual
11.9% is committed by someone other than the parents
3.1% is committed by an unknown or missing perpetrator.

Source: US Department of Health and Human Services Child Maltreatment Report 2001

And I also found some Australian statistics

Of the 582 cases of abuse by parents, mothers were responsible for 73 per cent, while fathers committed 27 per cent.
AustraliaWA Department for Child Protection 2007/8

Maybe UK child abuse figures are wildly different.

Of course women are more likely to spend time with their kids than men, but does this mean they can abuse them? Plenty do not, so its no excuse. If men were the primary care-givers and were found to be abusing them far more than women, and said 'Yeah but that's because we spend more time with them', I doubt this excuse would wash...

I thought this thread had too many 'men are dangerous' stats, so I thought this would balance it out. In the name of feminism. You know, equality.

swallowedafly - "what's to debate with someone who thinks women who are beaten by people they live with deserve it?

in your case mary i agree that you are quite right to not call yourself a feminist. i'd love to believe that you're just ignorant and we could explain to you why your rationale is flawed but i don't think it's worth it if you feel women abused or killed by people they know don't even deserve sympathy."

Everyone can see when you completely misrepresent someone's words to make them look like a monster. In fact, it just destroys your credibility.