AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

malinois wrote - "I'm a liberal, sex-positive feminist as I'm scared of being torn to shreds by the resident radfems."

The reception you will receive from other feminists depends on what you mean by "sex-positive".

You will receive one sort of response if you mean:

• women should be free from the distortion of female sexuality that has been imposed on women and girls by the men who control the pornography and prostitution industries.

You will receive a less welcoming response if you mean:

• no women are abused in pornography or prostitution
• all women participate in pornography and prostitution by their own free choice
• men should be free to traffick, buy, sell and abuse women in pornography or prostitution

The difference in response can't be surprising, can it?

Liberal feminists aren't liberal because they are "easy going". Liberal feminists can also be anti-porn and anti-prostitution.

Firstly, a judge making a comment about a rape victoms dress should be sacked. The backgrounds comments are the result of the longstanding belief that men cannot control their penises and must act like rabit dogs or they will be thought of as unmanly (really), as I said, we do have women in polictics. If you want to change it, go into politics. It is open.

As for the pay gap, does that statistics only count those working full time? Because a large proprtion of mothers work 3 day weeks or part time now. That's 40% less hours and will affect the final figure.

Another thing about average earnings, the figure is always wrong in the same way. The mean average persons income is about £24,000, but but model is actually about £19,000 because of the proportion of extremely high earners.

I would put my bet on the average lowly persons wage being pretty much the same for both sexes, and the fact that it is a fact that more men have super-jobs would account for the rest. This only shows that more are wokring in super-management jobs.

Far from being the result of sexism in the workplace, it could again be the result of mothers working less hours and therefore not achieving as highly in their jobs. Although this may seem sexist, what you've got to factor in is that a lot of woman still chose to do this. On the other hand, it's worth noting that a man couldn't go into the bosses office and ask drop down to art time to raise the kids. Another issue to address with the anyone can take the maternity leave arguement.

When I talk about the patriarchy, I am not talking about individuals. I am talking about a society where, in general, "male" is the norm and "female" is the other. And I do think it is impossible to deny that we live in a society like that. Look at the institutions that run the country - Parliament, the Judiciary, the Church, academia. All the hierarchies are heavily male at the top, heavily female at the bottom. And there has been plenty of opportunity for this to have changed - if the will was there.

Look at the portrayal of women in the media. The virgin/mother/whore dichotomy (trichotomy?) is as strong as ever. Look at the way Susan Boyle was treated. Look at the the scrutiny of women's looks. Just look around you.

when a woman states that she is not a feminist, simply ask her if she is content to be paid 20% less than her male counterparts. when she says no, tell her that she is a feminist despite herself. taadaa. (you may wish to prepare yourself for poorly thought out arguments against what you've just said.

the other day a twenty year old girl said to me: boys are just better than girls. so, i asked her to elucidate me with reference to specifics: what pray-tell are boys better than girls at?... stuff she replied. my groan of indignation was clearly audible. then she told me that she had been raised by her hugely right wing Tory father and i groaned again. she was a mess of contradictions. her admiration of david cameron led me to guess correctly that she had political aspirations but she kept coming out with this massively sexist crap that could only really have been bestowed upon her by her Dad. in the end i chose to leave over continuing a conversation with such a contradictory individual...

the image of feminism has taken a bit of a beating of late (not least as a result of proponents within) Germaine Greer stated that Cheryl Cole was too thin to be a feminist icon (because size is how she judge these things apparently). perhaps it is stuff like this and the perpetuation of the man hater image that (imo) is turning some women off the feminist label if not the feminist agenda also.

"Patriarchy is a social system in which the role of the male as the primary authority figure is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and is dependent on female subordination."

It's a definition that describes this country 100 years ago, maybe less. To think that definition of describes modern society is ludicrous.

That might describe some poor places in the world, or a minority of weird households, but how many British households is the father holding authority over the woman? Usually it's the woman that 'wears the trousers'! (Equally annoying to me, but I think regardless of gender, if there is domination, the most dominant will dominate). Most men have no interest in subordinating women. I'd even say more women manage to dominate their men than vice versa (personal experience, what you see on reality shows all the time, etc).

Vesuvia, my view that it's fine for women to wear whatever they want has been much maligned on Feminism threads. Perhaps I've misunderstood the argument, which seems to go something like: if women dress "like sluts", men will mistake their intention -> which is wrong of the menz -> but it happens because of pornification -> therefore, by dressing "like sluts", women perpetuate the porn mythology -> so they mustn't dress that way.

Other than terminology, I can't see any different between that and the misogynist viewpoint.

MarySue - do you think that women are as well represented in the running of our society as men?

Thinks have changed within the family, of course they have. But in society at large?

It's a definition that describes this country 100 years ago, maybe less
Definitely less. Try 25 years!
It's a little to soon to take it all for granted.

garlicnutter - wrote "Vesuvia, my view that it's fine for women to wear whatever they want has been much maligned on Feminism threads. Perhaps I've misunderstood the argument, which seems to go something like: if women dress "like sluts", men will mistake their intention -> which is wrong of the menz -> but it happens because of pornification -> therefore, by dressing "like sluts", women perpetuate the porn mythology -> so they mustn't dress that way.
Other than terminology, I can't see any different between that and the misogynist viewpoint."

Are you saying feminists who use that argument are women-haters (misogynists) or man-haters?

"Look at the portrayal of women in the media. The virgin/mother/whore dichotomy (trichotomy?) is as strong as ever. Look at the way Susan Boyle was treated. Look at the the scrutiny of women's looks. Just look around you."

That I do agree with. It's rediculous that these days a womens gets into stardome on her looks alone, not talent. It's very sad that we've los the days when three women like The Weather Girls could reach number one, because they just refuse to sign up anyone whose doesn't have "the look".

Another embarrasing fact is that if you look at "Lads Mags" they're just excuses for soft porn mags. But in fact, the highest selling lads mag is actually a gadget magazine with no nudity at all, so it just shows that actual men don't really want it.

So. The patriarchy is shrinking. Good. But feminism won't be redundant until it not longer exists at all apart from in a museum of hideous out-dated institutions. I know one family where the husband always has the final say in any decision (well after all someone has to) and the wife gets 'told off' by her husband and sulks as a result like a child. These are educated, intelligent people but that is how things have always been in their families. Here's hoping their 2 boys get together with women who won't stand for it.

The patriarchy is the status quo - and the status quo usually benefits more people than it harms so there are a lot of vested interests in not changing it too radically. And some of those vested interests are female - the women who don't think mothers should go out to work, the women who critisise other women for not being groomed or glamorous, or for not keeping their houses clean..... because of you are doing well in the status quo you won't want it changed.

Actually, there are a lot of posts on here where women seem to be regarding their dps as heads of the household. They wouldn't actually call them that, but how often are women posting about not having control of any money, of having to give their partners detailed accounts of their movements, of walking on eggshells to avoid getting into trouble, of wanting to move out but not being able to because they are scared, disempowered or kept poor?

OK, I agree. But one question, what of the mothers who don't want to go out to work until their children are older? My DP chose not to work. However, she chose it because she wanted to stay with our children when they were born and had said that she was going to work when she was pregnent. She plans to start up once the youngest re-enters school.

However, as I've said many times on this thread, she is certainly not subordinate. If anything, she's normally the one who gets the final say.

TheAtomicBum wrote - "Another embarrasing fact is that if you look at "Lads Mags" they're just excuses for soft porn mags. But in fact, the highest selling lads mag is actually a gadget magazine with no nudity at all, so it just shows that actual men don't really want it."

Hundreds of millions of men do really want pornography. A vast amount of pornography on the Internet is free and only a mouse click away. Therefore the Web is now the dominant delivery channel, rather than printed magazines.

OK, Seeker. I agree, you do see posts like that. I think some of the things mentioned are rediculous. I think one of the worst ones is the money splitting. The splitting bills and having whats left, and often he seems to benefit greatly from this. It's attrocious. Most families I know (just like ours) refer to money as "our money".

What of them atomic? That is entirely down to them. As long as they don't beleive it is what all women should do.

I'm with Targelor. I think the agenda has been hijacked by Institutionalised Misandry and that isn't very nice nor what Mother Nature intended. There is a reason for Two Sexes with Different Roles and when you try to mix them up you get this interracilalist hatred and child abuse resulting in Homopeadophiliac Feminists.

True enough. The internet needs a lot more security with that sort of thing.

Some countries apply the same laws to pornography as they do for prostitution. Don't see why we don't. Illegal to advertise, and therefore illegal to appear in search engines. It would decline fast.

I agree, Omirian. Just wanted to check that it's not the other way around. We all "should" go out to work. Some men do these days chose to be house husbands. Not very common, but it exists and that is a start.

vesuvia, the argument I summarised looks both feminist and misogynist to me! That'll be why I gave up engaging with such threads
When you allow the reality of pornification (= sexual objectification in mainstream culture) to dictate what women wear & must not wear, you are thinking like a victim. You are seeking to impose your fear-driven values on other women. You are doing exactly the same as those who cry "asking for it".
Nobody ever won a freedom by choosing not to exercise it.

Atomic, did you and DP discuss the option of your staying at home with babies while she returned to work? I'm not making any assumptions here - I know quite a few couples who have done that - but want to stress that it's usual for couples to do things the way you have. Why is that, do you think?

the porn issue is a thorny one. if we're honest, we could live without but we don't. should i be beating myself up about this? the male infanticide comment made me laugh. ducking out of this scince clearly out of my depth.

arf at thorny porn

Where is Targelor?

He spoke a lot of sense.

Homopeadophiliac Feminists!
I read that as "haemophiliac feminists" ...

is thorny porn the reason why so young men these days have tattoos of thorns all over their arms? the porn culture is spreading before our eyes and I never even noticed!

We have come a long, long way in the UK and it should be celebrated. The fact that women now have legal rights to equality is something that 3/4 of the rest of the world don't have. We are lucky certainly. However, that doesn't mean the job is done or that feminism has "gone too far".

In my 20s, I believe in equality but would not have identified as feminist as I'd fallen for the man-hating hairy lesbian myth. I think that if you have led a happy, successful life that has not been actively tainted by sexism, it's easy not to see it all around you and convince yourself that you have equality. I know I did just that. It wasn't until I fell foul of sexism that I really started to see it. The more I looked into it, the more I realised I was actually a feminist.

Today I identify proudly as a feminist, both on here and in RL. I do not hate men. I have male friends and a DS and I believe that men should be given increased paternity rights. I believe that feminism is actually a good thing for men, too. I choose to believe that men are actually capable, caring people who should be free to be the primary carer for their own DC or take on a job in a caring role. I believe men are indeed capable of juggling home/work/children the same way that the vast majority of women have to. I do not subscribe to the 'silly men can't cope' that many anti-feminists do. But the fact remains that the vast majority of men do not have to choose between career and parenthood in the same way women do.

As a feminist I believe women who SAH are performing a valuable social function that is vastly undervalued in our society (because it is generally women doing it) and I also believe any woman who wants to work should be allowed to without being hindered by her sex (which includes being limited by the availability/cost of childcare and the notion that it's her responsibility to fit her work around it). Women working full-time are paid on average 15.5% less an hour than men for doing work of equivalent value. Women make up less than 20% of MPs. 96% of executive directors of the UK's top 100 companies are men.

2 women are killed a week by their partners in this country. 1 in 4 women are abused by a partner. That's based on reported crime figures cited by Women's Aid. Bearing in mind that DV is massively underreported, the real figure is likely to be much, much higher, somewhere between the 25% recorded and possibly as much as half. That doesn't include relationships where emotional abuse goes on, nor relationships that while appearing equal see the woman doing way more than her fair share of domestic tasks. I don't think the family is that equal for an awful lot of women TBH. That's not to say that the family as an institution doesn't work - when it does work it works well, but denying the scale of unhappy marriages in which women are abused is denying these women's pain and suffering.

Meanwhile out of every 100 rape cases reported to the police, just seven end in the rapist being caught and punished.

We do not live in a gender equal society, despite the fact that we have made huge improvements and many women will never have experienced what they perceive as direct sex discrimination.

Can I suggest (meekly) that anyone who feels uncomfortable about identifying as a feminist but who does believe in equality takes a look at The Fawcett Society website I think you'll find a lot to interest you and I would say it is considered a feminist organisation that is not constrained by definitions such as liberal or radical.