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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not want to help someone to live after my death?

413 replies

dolldaggabuzzbuzz · 29/06/2011 13:31

I am on the organ donor register. I am willing to donate all my organs to those who may need them in the event of my untimely death.

However, if the new system of presumed consent is brought in, I am opting out. I can't explain why I feel like I do about this. Am I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
suzikettles · 29/06/2011 14:55

Just to be clear, those of you who think that medical staff might not try so hard to save patients with presumed consent in place:

  • Do you think that they don't try so hard to save patients who have a donor card in their wallet now?
  • Do you think that they don't try so hard to save patients to save money on expensive ICU equipment in these cash strapped times?
  • Do you think that they don't try so hard to save patients when there's all that money to be made from signing death certificates?
  • Do you think that they don't try so hard when the might just be a bit knackered and want to slope off for a kip near the end of a long shift?

Or is it only "presumed consent" that would turn these professionals into body snatchers?

thumbwitch · 29/06/2011 14:56

And this is why there is a general policy for transplant recipients to remain unknown to the donor family. Because there is no room for a meritocracy in saving lives - every life is worth the same to the doctors and the donor organs go to the patient most likely to die without them.

There CANNOT be a meritocracy, it would not only be wrong, it would be a bugger to administrate!

bubblecoral · 29/06/2011 14:57

Obviously the family arent going to do anything with the organs Hmm

It's about how someone feels. I've been bereaved and if I were in that position again with someone even closer to me, I would love to think that I might be able to cope with someone else having having my loved ones organs. In all honest truth, I think I might just ending up feeling resentment. I wouldn't want to feel like that, of course not, but grief is a horrible horrible thing and your emotions can go anywhere with that.

All I'm saying is that if my husband lost me and it would make him feel even a tiny bit worse to think that part of me was living on while the actual me was dead, I wouldn't want that. That doesn't make me a bad person, and Georgimama, I don't think it's childish at all. It's real emotions that real grief can bring. I don't see why that is so hard to understand, although I do think it's not as important as a person facing death in a transplant ward, but it is still valid.

DingDongMerrilyOutOfSeason · 29/06/2011 14:57

'Presumed consent' just doesn't sit well. I can't think of any other area where consent is presumed.

This was said further up the thread. I am not sure about the legalities but if you go into hospital requiring urgent treatment, you are treated to save your life, even without your consent, unless you have opted out of certain procedures/treatments. I think presumed consent is absolutely right for organ donation. I cannot understand how anyone who would want an organ for their child could disagree with this system. It is not forceful donation, you can opt out, it just means that instead of people who can't be arsed to sign a form donating organs, you will have people who can't be arsed to sign a form to opt out, meaning more organs available from people who don't care one way or the other.

DingDongMerrilyOutOfSeason · 29/06/2011 14:58

OP, YABU. Totally forgot to say that and not even for the points I have made above, but for the petty reasons in your OP. If you agree with saving lives, donate organs. If not, don't.

thumbwitch · 29/06/2011 14:58

Although having said that there is often an age-related cut off.

thumbwitch · 29/06/2011 15:00

I don't understand how anyone could be sad/angry/resentful that a part of their lost loved one was living on in someone else. That's just beyond me. Confused
Afaik, most family members of organ donors are very happy that some part of their lost family is living on and bringing life to someone else.

DingDongMerrilyOutOfSeason · 29/06/2011 15:02

I think currently some of it comes down to explaining to family members why you want your organs to be donated, how important it is to you. If I lost someone close to me and they had chosen to be an organ doner, I hate to think I would deny them this because it might upset me. I would rather they had the opportunity to save another life. But I can see why grieving people would find it hard to make this decision, which is why it has to be discussed beforehand. Presumed consent would take a lot of this stress away as it would become the normal and accepted thing to do.

cantpooinpeace · 29/06/2011 15:04

There are a lot of people who haven't discussed it therefore find it difficult to commit one way or another, again presumed consent would stop this.

suzikettles · 29/06/2011 15:08

I just think it's a rubbish time to have that conversation with a family - just after they've been through this horrendous bereavement. They're in shock, possibly can't even take in the enormity of what's happened. I suspect a great many refusals are split second decisions based on gut feeling in the midst of overwhelming grief.

As a start, I'd like to see registration be enough for donation to happen. The potential giver made an active, informed decision to be a donor.

westernwaydomesticgoddess · 29/06/2011 15:09

I agree the system needs to be changed. I have never had a problem with being an organ donar and if any of my family went against my wishes on donation I would come back and haunt them from the grave Grin.
I am a regular blood donar, on the organ donar register and also the Bone Marrow donar register and have made my feelings clear on what I want done with my body after I die. 1 body can help many many people after death and having worked in the NHS I know how many people die whilst waiting for a transplant. As I am not religious i have no problem with my body not being buried 'whole' and would hope that my family could respect my wishes and be happy that they are helping others by agreeing to my organs being used. i wouldn't even mind my body being used 'for medical science'.

bubblecoral · 29/06/2011 15:15

Well of course they would thumbwich. The ones who would be upset wouldn't give consent would they.

Personally, I place importance on the feelings of grieving relatives. That's obviously my choice when it comes to my body.

It's very easy for someone who believes that organs are just tissue, but what about those people who just don't know? They have no confirmed religion, but don't have any firm beliefs about what happens after death and think that it could make a difference.

scurryfunge · 29/06/2011 15:19

bubble, those people could just default back to fact.

lenak · 29/06/2011 15:20

Both DH and I are on the register now and if, god forbid, anything should happen to my kids and they were suitable for donation, I wouldn't hesitate if it meant that there was a chance one or more other parents would not have to go through what I was going through.

I fully agree with presumed consent.

Under the current system, if I had to make a decision for a family member who was not on the register, I would always opt to donate because I would not know whether it was a conscious decision or lazyness - unless of course we had discussed it. But even then, they would be dead.......

Under presumed consent, if they have opted out, I would have a clear indication that they cared enough about not wanting to donate to have to actively do something about it.

SevenAgainstThebes · 29/06/2011 15:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LittleMissFlustered · 29/06/2011 15:26

bubble

Why should the views of somebody who 'doesn't know' and is not on the register, have anything to do with the body of somebody who doesn't care and is? Because that's what it comes down to. I don't believe my body is anything more than cells and such. If I die, should my mum or dad, who have beliefs, overrule my wishes for my body, that I have made clear to the state? My organs are just another addendum to a will as far as I am concerned. The law wouldn't allow my mum to say I'm not permitted to leave my jewellery to a friend/child. So why should it allow her to say I'm not allowed to leave my heart and lungs to the nhs?

scurryfunge · 29/06/2011 15:29

A body only holds significance to those who are superstitious. We do in effect hold memorial services and dispose of bodies in hygienic ways. Cremation springs to mind and burying bodies is to do with effective disposal too.
Mass graves are about finding out what happened to a person and how they died. Alderhey was to do with stealing body parts and I understand that people who cling to superstition need a focus for their grief. It is a way of dealing with death, I suppose but a body is a body and in itself has no significance per se.

LetThereBeRock · 29/06/2011 15:33

I don't agree again,Scurry,surprise,surprise.
I am an atheist,don't believe in souls,an afterlife or any of that,but do believe very strongly in respect for the dead. Their bodies used to be a person or belonged to a person, it lived, it breathed, it ate, it loved, it did so much, so it's more than a vessel imho,which is why I hate to see bodies,no matter how old, on display in museums.

DumSpiroSpero · 29/06/2011 15:33

I think it's pretty unreasonable to withdraw consent if you are already on the register - it does seem a rather illogical way to make a point.

That said the idea of presumed consent doesn't sit well with me either, but I will look into the idea more thoroughly if and when it comes in. I don't carry a donor card but my parents and DH are aware that if they are asked at the time I would like them to give permission for whatever organ is needed to be used.

I think saying if you would accept a donor part you should be on the register simplifies things a bit too much. I would accept blood or bone marrow if I needed it, but I can't donate either for medical reasons. There are a wide variety of religious and moral considerations too - it's just not a black and white issue, and my concern would be that if we went down the presumed consent route, what else could we apply it too?

Original poster
dolldaggabuzzbuzz · 29/06/2011 15:33

lenak I understand that under the current system next of kin can overrule the deceased's choice to be an organ donor. By the same token can the NOK decide to donate the deceased's organs even if they are not a registered donor? If so, it seems that the decicion is always made by the NOK rather than the deceased individual.

OP posts:
Hulababy · 29/06/2011 15:34

Yes, the decisin lies with the NOK I believe.

MrsCarriePooter · 29/06/2011 15:37

Dingdong - there's presumed consent (to assault) in the case of resuscitation of an unconscious patient.

Original poster
dolldaggabuzzbuzz · 29/06/2011 15:39

So with a system of presumed consent NOK don't have a say?

OP posts:
dutchmanswife · 29/06/2011 15:42

A lot of posters have mentioned that if people had a child waiting for a transplant then they would then be in favour of presumed consent. Well I have been in that position so l'll give you my story.

My first daughter needed a transplant and because of her age and size the organs she needed had to come from a young child. I was very conscious that while she was on the transplant list that we were waiting for another child to die in order for her to have a chance at life.

The only way I could posibly live with this situation was knowing that the other parents gave full and informed consent, not presumed.

Eventually that other child did die and my daughter got her transplant, sadly it didn't work and she also died.

So having been in the situation of waiting, and watching my daughter deteriorate, I belive donation is a gift and I'm very much against presumed consent.

scurryfunge · 29/06/2011 15:45

I am sorry for your situation and your loss , dutchmanswife.

I would presume that everyone would want to help someone suffering unless they opted out of doing so.