AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

OP, can I ask what your DP thinks of all this?

If you feel at all uncertain of your ability to withstand the guilt/pressure, could you enlist his support? He won't have the same emotional ties to your brother or feel bound by your brother's mum, so it may be easier for him to say "No, we will not be spending any more of OUR FAMILY's time or money to bail him out of this mess of his own creation. (and bugger off!)

Why can´t he live with his mum until he sorts something else out?

Ninja, from what you've said I can see that you are thinking sensibly about all of this, but having difficulty stopping the guilt from taking over. This is becuase you love your brother and want to do anything you can to stop him from doing anything 'stupid'.

Thing is, there are a couple of points - - -

1. If he really wants to do something 'stupid' nothing you can do will stop him. Ever.

1. Giving him money or sorting his business will not help. If you want to help offer emotional support and practical advice on managin debt and coping with mental health issues/ depression. In fact it might be worth seeing if you can get him to see someone on this latter score

1. You are not responsible for your brothers actions, no matter what his mother says.

If you are worried about caving when speaking with his mother, can I suggest you let her say what she needs to say, and respond with 'well I will certainly think about that'.

Don't ever agree to anything just say 'I will think about it'. Then you can come away from the conversation and think it through logically. You can even come on here and get life coaching about it!!!!

But then do as you have done now. Email back in a calm way and be very clear about what you are not prepared to do and offer other possible solutions. IMO the only way to deal with it is to allow the time to remove the emotion from it - in this instance emailing really helps!!!

He sounds like a manipulative sod. TBH I am struggling to understand why, when this man has failed to repay you £150K, anyone would think of even hinting that you help him out. Threatening suicide if no help is forthcoming is the worst form of blackmail. Have nothing more to do with him.

Ffs- have you not done enough!!!!

I love the idea of you telling your DB's mum that you can't lend him any money because the panda, the hamster and the cybermen say no!

Say it in a particularly vague, distracted way and then look puzzled when they query it!

Hope today's conversation (AKA Shouty's script) goes OK.

Please remember if he commits suicide it is not on your shoulders, it is on his. Nearly all his, along with his wife and mother. If anything, with your loan ten years ago, you might have delayed it by 5 years.

Good luck,

Is it possible to put a notice/charge against their house for the outstanding £150k. So if it is sold you can get your money back.

I've been following this for a bit, and can't but agree with everyone else, but just want to highlight two things which it is particularly worrying for you to be ignoring:

1. Why are you being distracted from your "expensive court battle" with your ex by this stuff, which is nothing to do with you? Even if you are scared by the court case, and don't want to think about it, this oh-brother situation is the unhealthiest distraction possible. Please do realise that you are sabotaging your own and your DCs' interests twice over: by not looking after your own interests in court and by working against your own interests in this other bit of your family. Forget yourself: both are betrayals of your DC.

2. Your brother is, frankly, an embezzling crook and conman. That's been fairly comprehensively covered, and even you seem to be able to say that aloud now. However, his mother is pretty dodgy, too, and I would not trust her convenient offer of the developer's price for your land. I would bet £100 of my own money that this is not a "market" rate, and that she would get a nice kickback from the developer for procuring it for him/her so cheaply. Do not trust her. Your brother got his weak and vicious character from somewhere, and your father sounds strong enough, given that he didn't want to sell his house to your B in the first place.

This suicide stuff is bullshit. His wife and mother are driving that, and they should be ashamed of themselves for trying to blame someone else.

Sorry, to be so "cheap" with my £100 bet, by the way. I have only my own money to bet with!

Three things, from another late-comer who has read the whole thread:

Firstly: My father told me to stop lending my younger sibling money because he feared exactly this combination of entitlement/continuing reliance on handouts. I did, and my sister sorted herself out very quickly. She had lessons to learn, and I was getting in the way of that. Your situation, albeit more extreme, is essentially the same. The fact that your brother is ill doesn't alter the fact that he has to find the strength, and the ability to live differntly from now on. He has to learn it, you can't do it for him.

Second: I've been suicidal. At that point, I was so very ill I was really beyond anyone's ability to influence me. I was not capable of using my situation to manipulate anyone else. I didn't go through with it because I found the inner strength not to, not because someone stepped in and gave me material help (which at the time I could have done with).

If your brother is genuinely suicidal, please don't think that some concrete thing like lending money can dissuade him. You are setting yourself up for heartache if you go down that road. He will need speedy, expert intervention. If (very big if) you use your money for anything to do with your brother, let it be that.

For the same reason, however genuine about it he is, you cannot let him or his mother manipulate you on the back of it. The money is a symptom and a distraction from the grave underlying problems. It sounds as though the whole marriage is dysfunctional with money as a key battleground, and your brother's realtionship with his mother may be equally problematic.

Also, what shoutyhamster and kungfupanda said.

EldritchCleavage, well said

Some wonderful advice on this thread. OP you sound like a lovely, generous and supportive sister. Your DB is lucky to have you in his life.

How do you manage with such a massive mortgage anyway? Mine is about 185k and it's crippling me!

Is DB supporting you while you go through this court battle with exP? Thought not.

Checking in here fallen - hope you are girding your loins

Great post from EldritchCleavage there

Fingers crossed now...

I really liked the second email. Firm!

I did however quite like the point you made in the first email . . . "Maybe we could sell it to me for the original £150k loan i put up, a value far exceeding its worth" . . . But I think just because it needs pointing out again and again that he already owes you a huge amount of money!

DB's mum sounds like an amateur con artist...she's acquired his house and now she "knows" someone who will buy your land, does she have a financial interest in that "development"?????...all very dodgy.

Don't give him anything. You already gave him enough to send both your kids through private school and university!!!!! Shoutyhamster is quite right. You need to think of your own children here, not hand money off to someone who will do nothing with it except piss it up against a wall.

You might as well take that £50k in notes and set fire to them.

But as an accountant, just say "If I was my own client what would I advise them?"

Don't throw good money after bad!!!!!!
And tell his mum to piss off and fund her own dirty money grubbing schemes somewhere else.

I would also add that the fact DB and you ddo not communicate and only his HIGHLY MANIPULATIVE mother talks to you suggests to me that this is all about HER and I'd check the facts with your brother. A common tactic among manipulative and dishonest people is that they control the line sof communication, therefore you don't actually know what she says is true. And what is she saying to your brother about you?

Stop believing anything she says, I'd say she was highly dishonest and only acting in her own self interest. She is also trying to play you for a sucker...

To be fair Miggsie I thought it wasn't DB's mother who got involved in the house but DB's wife's mother. Stand to be corrected though.

You have had excellent advise from the Hamster, Panda et al and all I can add is give him the details of llwww.bdl.org.uk/ Business Debtline]]

That would be the kindest, most sensible and best thing you could ever do for your brother and if he had any sense at all he would take the advice they give.

Also if he is afraid of bankruptcy and what it would entail then tell him to have a chat to the guys on the Bankruptcy Board on MSE Though if he goes on there with an entitled attitude they may tear him to shreds. But if you want to post on his behalf they can tell you what he can expect, which you could pass on.

Sorry link for BDL.

ninja good on ya. Bloody hard trying to harden up when it sounds that you are a kind and helpful person by nature. It's not on when you are being taken blatant advantage of. Sounds like they'd take everything from you if you let them.

I echo what everyone else has said. Enough is enough. Not going to the meeting is exactly the right thing.

His wife sounds like a piece of work - ostrich syndrome!

You're not his guardian, his parent, his keeper. He is an adult, despite being ill he is accountable for his own actions and until he realises the buck stops with him he has no motivation to get out of the hole he's in if he keeps being offered a helping hand. You are helping him most by not helping him iyswim.

Chin up, be strong, you can do it.

How are you ninja?

Hi everyone, thanks for the messages. Ive just got in so will get the kids inbed and return and read later.
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