to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

[BornSicky]

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

Bubbley...... How is forcing a woman to have a baby she neither wants or can cope with considering the mother?

jezebel.com/5798180/truefax-about-abortion i think this sums up my opinion

"My point about correct terminology was in relation to my earlier post about women who refer to foetuses at much later stages of development as embryos or 'bundles of cells" which seems to suggest that they can't face the reality of what it is they are actually doing. It was in response to the post about having to look at a scan prior to having the abortion. If the woman can't look at that ie face the reality of it, and still be sure about her decision then she obviously needs to think again."

Very likely a 13yo who has been raped by her father cannot face the reality of looking at the foetus. Does that mean she has to go through a pregnancy that is putting her life at risk and might traumatise her for life- simply because she is less ready to look at a scan image than some business-like 35yo who simply feels a baby is wrong at this stage of her career?

I know CheerfulYank, it's never black and white. It was just a bit of a rant.

It really disheartens me though to see how vitriolic the rhetoric is in the US these days on both sides of ANY debate. Some of the things the current crop of Republican hopefuls say really scares me. I swear that if ANY Tea Party candidate wins the election I'll burn my passport on the steps of the US embassy in London and NEVER return. I don't see how any compromise can take place with the hardcore diehard views of some of these people. Sure, the public may have views that run the middle course but the politicians sure don't! There is no way the country can be properly represented if the leader is so far to the left or right of centre. If someone like that nut job Michele Bachmann becomes president it will alienate a huge portion of the people (who probably didn't vote). I find it hard enough listening to all the BS insulated by 3000 miles of ocean but I just couldn't stand it if I still lived there.

Michele Bachmann will not become president. Bite your tongue! :) She's from my state, too...oh the shame.

Cat, do I think it might be allowed? Yes, that is usually the case - even here in NI abortion is allowed if the woman's life is in danger. Does that mean I approve of/agree with abortion? No. I think there are certain circumstances where it will always be allowed but I think it has become too readily available and people have become almost numb to it. In the case where the mother's life is at risk it could be considered 'saving' a life if the mother will actually die if she goes through with the pregnancy although I do think options where both lives could be preserved should be explored. E.g if the baby could be delivered earlier etc. I do not think the mother's life is less valuable, I think it is of EQUAL value. A life is a life no matter how young it is IMO and no one has the right to take another's life.

cory, I love the way these extreme hypothetical situations are produced in the pro-choice argument. In that case, how would not giving the girl all the facts make it 'better' for her? How can she make an informed choice otherwise? How would she feels if she grows up and realises what she did and ends up completely traumatised/depressed? I honestly don't see how it is ethical to withold information from anyone when such an important decision is being made.

bubbley.... The facts. What are the facts of the fetus, the known facts? The picture of the fetus is not really representative of the fetus. The 'eyes' do not see, the 'brain' does not feel, the 'nose' does not smell.

I walked past a dead chick the other day....it looked like a chick, albeit grey with tiny wings, but it was never a chick.

Extremes are used to make a point.

It depends on what your version of the facts that is?

How about?
Most women who have abortions do not regret it
While there is a small risk of psychological trauma, most women suffer no ill effects, physical or emotional after an abortion.
There is no established link between abortions and breast cancer
The benefit system is being drastically cut so, should you choose to continue this pregnancy and are single, be prepared for the possibility of living in poverty.
If you choose to carry this child to term and it turns out to have special needs of some kind, financial assistance is almost impossible to obtain now so you may spend the rest of your life in poverty.
Unwanted children are more likely to suffer childhood abuse

Or are these facts not consistent with the myth of the happily ever after?

I think if Michele Bachmann gets in I would seriously consider going home - not that DC is that much better.

Slug, the fact is, you don't know how any particular individual will be affected. All the information should be available - including a scan so you know you are making an informed choice and that your choice is one that you can live with. What is the point of convincing yourself that the 12 week old foetus you are aborting is a 'bundle of cells' or a 'tiny blob' or whatever and then several years later you have to face the reality at the 12 week scan of your 'wanted' baby that it is actually a lot more than that. Are you seriously arguing against women having all the information about foetal development? If someone genuinely wants an abortion and is not thinking of it as a baby why should they have a problem looking at a scan? Unless they actually see it as a baby when it is scanned in which case they were obviously not making an informed decision prior to that.

Bubbleymummy: Because there is no other area of medical treatment where the predisposition is to treat the patient as a selfish ignorant slut who deserves to be bullied and harassed and told she doesn't know her own mind every step of the way. Most women who terminate their pregnancies do not suffer physical and emotional trauma afterwards and there is no reason why they should. Because their lives matter more than any foetus.

sgb- not very nice to call them sluts sgb. Just want to point out that in none of my posts have I said they should be treated like that. Just because MOST don't doesn't mean that ALL won't and there's no way of knowing who will. What is wrong with having all the information? Really, why are you objecting to this? Is it because you think women may change their mind if they saw the scan? Why shouldn't they have the choice to do that?

No I'm not bubbleymummy, I'm arguing against the propoganda that says that women regret abortions, that they result in physical and mental health complications, that women, once they have their baby/see the scan instantly fall in love with it.

The idea that seeing a scan will somehow change your mind is quite simply patronising FFS, we are adults. Most women who have abortions are adult women with children already who have considered all the implications of bringing an unwanted child into the world.

I hate this infaltalisation that goes on with the anti choice brigade. The seem to imply that those silly girls who get themselves knocked up (quote from my GP - I was 32 at the time) a) don't know what they are doing and b) if they are only given all the right information they would automatically decide to keep their precious ikle bundles.

Do me a favour, treat us as adults. I learnt all that stuff in science in the 4th form.

"women regret abortions, that they result in physical and mental health complications, that women, once they have their baby/see the scan instantly fall in love with it."

I'm not saying that all of them do - some do. Would you like to argue against that fact?

"Most women who have abortions are adult women with children already who have considered all the implications of bringing an unwanted child into the world. "

Source for that please.

"if they are only given all the right information they would automatically decide to keep their precious ikle bundles.
"
Not saying that either but if you weren't considering it a baby and the scan wouldn't change your mind then what are you afraid of?

*How is forcing a woman to have a baby she neither wants or can cope with considering the mother?

People who are militantly pro-life (and I am not) already see the fetus as a baby. If you have an infant and decide you cannot cope with it, you are not allowed by law to kill it. Either you have to muddle through, you have to get help, or you have to give the child up. To someone who is militantly pro-life, if you are pregnant, these are your choices as well. I don't feel this way, but am merely explaining why some do.

And yes, I do feel that my pro-life leanings (nothing so strong as described above) do come from a feminist place. Men don't have to choose between parenthood and a career. Men don't have to choose between parenthood and school. Why isn't it easier for women to go to school and have the career they want and have motherhood too? Why aren't supports in place? Why do we stigmatize mothers who have high-powered careers and not fathers?

I think it's fear cheerful as you can't control someone who clearly doesn't need you. There is vulnerability attached to being heavily pregnant and giving birth. There is less and less of a stigma attached to women with children and careers though, surely? That can only be a good thing for my daughter.

Good point cheerfulyank. Perhaps we should be looking at how woman can better be given the choice to keep their baby without it having such a negative impact on their career/education etc. There could be done very simple solutions available. Even things like creches in offices/schools could help.

Oh yes tad it's definitely better, not saying otherwise. But I have been told that I can't have any pro-life feelings and still consider myself a feminist, but I do.

Too many buts in that post. :)

Bubbleymummy: There could be a lot more help given to women who don't want to continue their pregnancies for social/economic reasons, sure. But it's a very rare anti-abortionist who campaigns for this sort of thing. You might get the odd wanky superstitious group who claim to be a source of support for young single pregnant women, but the support is more likely to be the odd tin of beans and a fucking Bible rather than longterm help. And the majority of antichoicers are barely even interested in that because their agenda is all about stripping women of their human rights and putting them back under male control.
Now I support the right of any woman to decide to terminate a pregnancy for any reason right up until the moment of birth. I have no problem at all with that as a moral position. Because women are people and matter more than foetuses and also the number of women who would genuinely decide to end a late-term pregnancy for 'social' reasons (or that other pet hate figure of the foetus-worshippers, the women who have LOTS OF ABORTIONS ie more than two) is so low as to make it totally unjustifiable to deny all other women the right to control their own bodies and make their own decisions.
It is NOBODY else's business what choice a woman makes about a pregnancy. Even if your antichoice attitude comes from personal pain ie you can't conceive or can't carry a pregnancy to term, that doesn't give you the right to demand another woman serve as your incubator.

"their agenda is all about stripping women of their human rights and putting them back under male control."

I can't say I know a single person who is pro-life for this reason tbh.

Also don't understand the logic of not treating a baby as 'alive' until it is born. so a baby born at 37 weeks is alive but the baby that hangs in there until 40 weeks or even 42 isn't? very strange logic....

What about the women in India who abort because they don't want girls, SGB ? Right up til birth, really? So like, 8, 9 months? How would you abort a fetus that old? You'd have to out-right kill it somehow.

And if by "superstitious" you mean religious, then yes, I am. But I am very concerned with born people as well. I am not a "fetus worshipper." I try to help as many people as I can, and it certainly needs to go beyond a can of beans and a bible.