to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

[BornSicky]

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

I talk about embryos because that is when most abortions take place. The vast majority of legions take place in the first trimester, some technically "fetus" rather than "embryo" but no more a "person".

Yes, abortion is legal up to 24 weeks in the UK but very very few abortions take place at or close to this point and none "one a whim".

on a whim, rather. Stupid iPad auto-correct.

I am not attempting to argue about which country has better laws because it's certainly not the point here. I just find it to be a bit odd that there's all this "America is fucking barbaric" business when, as stated, it's legal in every state here but not your entire country.

But yes, not the issue.

This is the FB conversation I've just had with a friend, who is a well respected journalist in New York.

Annie: XX, as the most sensible American I know, could I please have your view on this?

Outcry in America as pregnant women who lose babies face murder charges | World news | The Guardian
www.guardian.co.uk
Women's rights campaigners see the creeping criminalisation of pregnant women as a new front in the culture wars over abortion
about an hour ago · Like · · Share · See friendship

XX: Sigh. I think that some Americans think they are in a culture war and, as in all wars, all is now fair. I believe that our rapidly changing society has made a small portion of Americans very fearful, and people behave very badly and irrationally when they're afraid. Do I think any judge will ever convict this poor teen of murder? Absolutely not. And the prosecutors that charged her probably know that. They may be using her as a symbol and a warning, which is almost worse. I can only hope that at some point, reasonable people will win the day.
38 minutes ago · Like

Annie: I hope you're right, and that reason will win out. But the statistic mentioned at the end of the article, that "there have been up to 300 women arrested for their actions during pregnancy", is very worrying to me. It seems that America, a nation rightly or wrongly claiming to lead the world, is suffering from an erosion of women's rights. I sincerely hope that's not true.
32 minutes ago · Like

XX: As do I.
19 minutes ago · Like

XX: And I should also say that there are plenty of Americans willing to fight for those rights and do whatever it takes to preserve our civil liberties. You'll notice that the statistic gives the number of women arrested, but not convicted. To my knowlege, no woman has been convicted for this, and I think there would be an incredible outcry if it happened and the nation found out.
about a minute ago · Like

Annie: Good, you have set my mind at ease somewhat. Thank you!
A few seconds ago · Like

So some counties in some States in the US have DAs who are zealots who think nothing of twisting a law designed to protect pregnant women from violent partners into a cruel device to control women, probably the poor and vulnerable, and forcing their pro-life principles onto their populace? Do you suppose this precedent will be taken to challenge Roe v Wade in the supreme court again? And can you envisage a situation where a woman who has suffered a stillbirth or late miscarriage being sued by some organisation for having failed to carry to term? I don't imagine that rich, insured women will be the target, just the vulnerable again. I hope to God that this is a worst-case scenario that will never come to pass.

Yes, Annie, that's what I said before. There have been no convictions and if there ever are, there will be a shitstorm the likes of which we've never seen.

The problem is, that law is there to protect women and wanted fetuses. But here they insist on the law being blind (though it never is, not perfectly, and I doubt that that's an American phenomenon) and so the reasoning by some extremely militant pro-lifers is that the law can be used at any time.

There are four liberal Supreme Court Justices and one moderate. Roe v Wade won't be overturned anytime soon, despite the efforts of Norma McCorvey (aka Jane Roe), who is now one of the most vocal pro-lifers.

Annie, I am trying to figure out how that FB conversation actually adds anything to the conversation or actually proves anything since we have no proof that the person is a) in the US b) a journalist or c) real.

And, yes, abortion is illegal in NI. Which is part of the UK. That's been mentioned only about a million times on the thread.

And I have to agree with CheerfulYank who is a bit stumped about the 'US is so barbaric' attitude when the country you live in does not have legal abortion in all of it's parts. Who is barbaric then?

The reason this thread has evolved into an abortion discussion is because abortion is part of a woman's right to choose and have control over her own body. And what is happening with these persecutions also has to do with it. This thread has over 430 posts. There are only so many ways we can all agree we are outraged about this.

And this is what threads do. They change. They go off on tangents.

If you don't understand that, I think perhaps the internet is a place you should step back from for a bit and get a bit of knowledge and perspective.

Tee - it's not really that important who my friend is, or even if the conversation is real, in the grand scheme. I though people might like the view of another American, so I posted it. Ignore it if you want.

I realise threads go off at tangents, but it horrified me that a thread about how women's right and freedoms and autonomy over her body are under threat in one of the world-leading countries, which imo should have had women uniting under a banner of outrage should instead descend into women arguing with each other over another issue entirely.

But it's not another issue entirely. It is the issue.

And there are plenty of Americans already involved with the discussion without some odd, un-sourced copy and paste from FB. So you're friend is a journo and lives in NY? I'm a Graphic Artist and have lived in NY, California, Iowa, Florida and Connecticut. Does that give me more clout?

Tee, you seem determined to argue with me, so I'm not sure how much point there is in engaging with you. Where did I say my friend has more clout? Did I ask everyone on the thread to ignore all the other Americans and only read my friend's post? No, I didn't. I thought her input would be helpful. Sorry if you don't agree.

We seem to be looking at this from two different angles. You see it as reasoned debate on an appropriately linked topic, I see it as similar to sheep being led to the slaughter arguing about whether lamb chops or shank are tastier.

The thing is, though, I genuinely get upset when other women tell me I should be up in arms over things like abortions not being allowed up til the minute of birth. I believe that is wrong, so no, I'm not going to go in fists raised about it.

Also, I know that "charged" and "convicted" are very, very, very different things. No one is going to serve time over this.

I'm pleased to hear there have been no convictions. I sincerely hope there won't be.

And I told you that no one had been convicted and that there was an outcry over this, but it only sets your mind at ease if it comes from your friend because she's a "sensible American" ?

No, I genuinely missed that post from you.

Oh. Well then, in that case I'm sorry I said that.

I agree that this is not what the thread was about, but for a long while it was a pretty civilized discussion, and that's what really changes people's minds. Going in guns a'blazin and saying that if you don't agree you're stupid and hateful and whining and slobbering over ickle fetuses does nothing. (Disclaimer: I know you were not the bearer of those pearls of wisdom)

It's an issue many people have strong feelings about, and if people on opposite sides were discussing it rationally and respectfully that can only be a good thing, can't it, regardless of what the thread started as?

"Google "pictures of 6 week embryos" and you'll see that they are far more than a seed or a group of cells."

I have also had scans at 6-7 weeks and don't need Google to remember that the pulsing blob at that stage was 6-7 mm or about a quarter of an inch. If that is not a seed, I don't know what is. It is certainly not a thinking & feeling human being.

"I just sometimes think talking away embryos as just "seeds" not worth even thinking about is wrong"

No, actually, what is "wrong" is giving imaginary properties to things because you are emotionally involved.

The seed is not a flower, just like the embryo is not a person.

They are totally worth thinking about, when you want a flower or a baby. But it is also OK not to think about them when you don't. Because a seed is not pretty living flower and a 1/4 inch embryo is not a living breathing conscious person.

No, but a seven or eight month fetus is.

I had scans even earlier than cote did because of my diabetes. My first one was around 3 weeks, or just barely registering as pregnant. The technician wouldn't commit, but I know I saw a teeny tiny little flutter on there that had to be a heartbeat.

But if I had been there to be terminated, that little flutter would have strengthened my resolve, not changed my mind. Because if I was there for a termination then that flutter would have driven home to me that there was something growing in me that I wasn't prepared to take care of.

Instead, because our son was much wanted and much tried for (took 2 years, we were just starting investigation for fertility treatment when I caught), it gave me hope that our baby would be coming before too long.

I'm a bit wary about putting my toe in the water on this thread now and I should point that I see where you're coming from Cheerful Yank. I don't think any intelligent, rational person would assume that all Americans are pro-life extremists but I can see it would be galling to be lumped in that category.

However, I do think it is a bit misleading to keep insisting that abortion is legal throughout all the US. It's more complicated than that. Being legal doesn't mean it's freely available the way it is largely in the UK for example. I think it's 32 states isn't it that only permit abortion to be funded by medicaid for rape, incest or life-endangerment. That's a lot of women effectively denied access to abortion for other reasons.

I prefer to focus on the fact that when legislation has gone through that has made abortion illegal (e.g. Partial Birth Abortion Act) it was vetoed and overturned. However, the significant pro-life movement in the US, the degree to which it has nearly managed to ban abortion on more than one occasion, the fact that laws have been introduced that make abortion very difficult to access even if not actually illegal (e.g. Kansas), plus the restrictions on funding available for women seeking abortion, do present an image to the outside world that America is mostly anti-abortion. I'm not saying it's a correct view, but that is definitely what is coming out.

I have said repeatedly that, yes, abortion is legal in all States, but each State can set it's own limits. Honestly, people, read the thread.

And, in the States, you can jump in your car (and trust me, everyone has a car and everyone drives) and drive to a State that will not have those restrictions.

And that's the real difference. If I wanted to terminate a pregnancy I would have to find the time and money to fly elsewhere to have it done.

And, actually, this poll shows that most of NI's citizens want to remain a part of the UK.