to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

[BornSicky]

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

It would be interesting to do a proper piece of research and find out more about the other values/attitudes of pro-lifers.

Abortion makes me very uncomfortable. It is something I know I would struggle with if I ever had to face it and it is one reason why I have always been so paranoid and diligent about birth control. However, I am very much pro-choice. I can accept the reasoning behind being pro-life and understand it, but I am still pro-choice for many reasons, several of which have been mentioned on this thread.

I know a couple of people who are pro-life in RL, who are people I like and respect and who I would not categorise as remotely right-wing. However - and I don't know if this is true or just perception - it seems that people who are pro-life generally tend to be somewhat right wing with very traditional values that fly in the face of feminism. Maybe this is something grass-roots pro-lifers could address. The fanatics who drag this out in public are doing their cause no favours IMO.

People who publicly campaign against abortion are often the same ones campaigning for abstinence (which doesn't work) and for 'family values', which too often equates with women putting up with violent, unsupportive husbands because they don't want the stigma or financial hardship of being a lone parent. As SCGB pointed out earlier, if you want more women to keep their babies then you need better support for these women, such as better maternity care, support for lone parents, help with childcare so a woman can work and keep herself and the baby out of poverty - these are feminist concerns that I have yet to see many pro-lifers embracing because they fly in the face of their traditional family values.

Bubbleymummy:

The thing is with allowing the pregnant woman to make the choice to terminate her pregnancy or not in some cases (eg. for health reasons) is that it raises the question of why she is denied in the choice in others. If the woman is considered to be competent to make the moral choice about what is best for her potential child in one situation (ie. decide to continue with the pregnancy even if the possibility exists that this will mean she will not be alive to care for it or terminate it for the same reason) why is she denied this decision in other circumstances.

You argue that it is about treating woman and foetus equally and that in the extreme case that the woman's life is in danger means that the woman should be given priority. But I see the question of moral competency shows that this is not the case -except if you would also argue that in the case that a pregnant women whose life is at risk should be forced to have an abortion even if she doesn't want one.

You also say that it is too easy to get an abortion and this worries you. That women do not understand what abortion entails. I think this again evidences that you consider that women are not capable of making moral decisions. Unerstanding about life and death is not a difficult concept. My three year old seems to grasp it. You are arguing that women are not capable of making moral decisions.

Also you say that the prochoice argument always relys on hypothetical situations. I would say that is crap. The prochoice argument is based on the idea that there are no hypothetical constants. That each woman is different, that her situation is different. It argues that a women is more than capable of deciding what is in her and her potential child's best interests without being berated and belittled and made to feel guilty about having an active sex life without actually wanting children.

Finally, I put it to you that a situation in which life is considered to begin at conception makes IVF impossible among other things. When this is taken to its legal extremes, as it is sometimes in Mexico, this also means that every miscarriage and every stillbirth is regarded as suspect and should be investigated by a coroner. It leads to traumatised women, who after having a stillbirth, are handcuffed to the hospital bed and taken to prison. It leads to women being charged for murder and imprisoned for twenty plus years. It leads to women avoiding medical assitence after a miscarriage because they fear this might happen to them.

Do you want this situation to happen in other places too? I don't. I respect that you would never have an abortion; I respect that you have the moral integrity to make your own mind up about this. All I would ask is that you return the favour to the rest of womankind.

wow -there's a lot of generalisations about pro-lifers being made!

I don't think being feminist and concerned with women's rights should be at the exclusion of everyone else's rights either cheerful. I couldn't support the idea of abortion up until birth either, given that it would have to suffer in some way not to be alive anymore. I found that the East German system allowed for women's autonomy to a larger extent in that abortion was on demand, no questions asked up until 12 weeks and after that only for cases of rape, severe foetal impairment or life endangerment of the mother. That system was lost on unification with West Germany

"better maternity care, support for lone parents, help with childcare so a woman can work and keep herself and the baby out of poverty - these are feminist concerns that I have yet to see many pro-lifers embracing because they fly in the face of their traditional family values."

I don't have a problem with any of those things and no pro-lifers I know would either!

Cheerful: the question of India and China is extremely worrying. But I would argue that using it to oppose abortion not valid. Especially in the case of India, the phenomena of aborting female foetuses has replaced an older pratise of killing off or abandoning girl babies. It is simply that abortion is perhaps more efficient and easier to explain away. Getting rid of abortion is not going to help female foetus much in places where a woman's life is considered less important or valuable than a man's. It is only by convincing people that a woman is as valuable or important as a man that this phenomena can be ended.

I don't think I am making any generalisations here, Bubblymummy. My comments to you are grounded purely in what you have said on this thread so far. Feel free to correct me where I have misrepresented you (and I will apologise).

But the pro-lifers that are most visible bubbleymummy are unfortunately those who picket abortion clinics, shoot doctors etc. Those people who have reasoned, rational arguments, who have compassion for women struggling to cope with their unwanted pregnancy, who would be prepared to contribute towards the cost of medical care (here in the States) don't appear to be putting their views across. That is a shame.

I am in agreement with a lot of this. As I said, I have never ever voted for a pro-life politician. They are often in favor of cutting welfare and other benefits, so wtf is the woman supposed to do with the baby once she has it? Especially if she's a single mother. She can't work because she can't pay for childcare. But it shouldn't have to be that way.

Cat I understand that, the point about the whole aborting girl fetuses in China and India thing. I just meant that to some extent, we all believe abortion is okay for some reason and not others.

Yes Cheerful: "to some extent, we all believe abortion is okay for some reason and not others." I think you are spot on. I just don't think that it is correct for a State to impose the morals and beliefs of one group over another.

No, I don't believe that either. But a friend of mine thinks that the saying "don't like abortion? don't have one," is all that needs to be said on the subject. In some ways I understand that sentiment, certainly, but to people who are very pro-life, that's like saying, "Don't like dead babies? Don't do it then." To them, it is a baby. And I think that understanding that helps to see where the other side is coming from and how best to find common ground. Abortion is one of those issues where I don't think there ever will be total common ground, of course, but I think we can do a bit better than we are now.

Catita "why is she denied this decision in other circumstances. "

Because in the other circumstances her life isn't at risk. I think a woman can choose to save her life. Same as you could kill someone in self defence.

"That women do not understand what abortion entails. I think this again evidences that you consider that women are not capable of making moral decisions."

Not all, some do not and in any case, what is wrong with providing information to make sure it is a 100% informed decision. If you have made your mind up and are confident you are making the right decision then what harm do the facts do? I don't think it's ethical to allow a woman to make a decision without ensuring she has all the information and knows exactly what she is doing. If she knows all that already, great. If not, well then how can she be making an informed choice? Surely you should be pro - informed choice?

"Also you say that the prochoice argument always relys on hypothetical situations."

I didn't actually say that - I said they always pop up.

". It argues that a women is more than capable of deciding what is in her and her potential child's best interests without being berated and belittled and made to feel guilty about having an active sex life without actually wanting children."

Well surely she should have the information for that? How is providing that information berating and belittling her?

Your final paragraphs are another example of those 'extremes'. I have never said a miscarriage and stillbirth should be considered as murder. I said I understood it being investigated if there was a deliberate attempt to cause harm eg. When the woman took rat poison in her suicide attempt.

It's no coincidence that middle class teens and women are much more likely to abort. This is because they have higher aspirations and can see themselves achieving something in life. For those women/girls being a single parent from the off is much more frowned upon and so their choices are much more sttaight forward.

There are many many high achieving women who keep their babies too.

That's the thing, though...why should motherhood equal not achieving anything in life? Why is our society that way, that if you have a child, unplanned or not, your life should be over? Why can you not still go to school? Why can you not still work?

But, for starters, I think that birth control should be readily available and that sterilization for men and women should be free if they choose it.

Cheerfulyank: in cases of late abortion, the fetus is given an injection to stop its heart before it is removed.
And, as someone else said, yes it's a problem that women in some countries are under pressure to abort female foetuses but the answer to this is not denying other women the right to end pregnancies.
The real big problem with all antichoicers is misogyny. They think that because some women are 'bad' ie they have lots of abortions, or have abortions because they 'couldn't be bothered' with contraception or whatever, that all women have to be treated as though they would be wicked and selfish given the chance and therefore they must be under strict control For Their Own Good. If the law was changed to allow abortion on request right up to birth, do you really, really think that millions of women would suddenly go oh right, I won't bother with contraception, and I won't bother to try to book an abortion quickly, I'll just bumble along because I can get an abortion whenever I want one? Most women who become pregnant unexpectedly tend to continue their pregnancies. Many women who become pregnant do not go on to have a live baby even if they wanted to: something like a third of conceptions do not develop beyond a few weeks.

Caita said: "I put it to you that a situation in which life is considered to begin at conception makes IVF impossible among other things"

how so? IVF engineers conception and the life continues in the womb - what is impossible?

also, why so much faith in women's ability to make a decision, when in many cases they lack the most basic information or insight into what abortion or motherhood might involve? I argue that indeed many women don't understand at all what abortion entails - you say it's a simple matter of life or death - I don't think most women frame it in quite those terms.

All the information in the world doesn't alter the fact that if you can't afford to feed another baby you can't afford to feed another baby. Forcing a woman in that situation to carry a baby to term brings to mind the term 'slave'

::stomps back in::

I think the real issue with the Right To Life campaign in the States, as with so many heated issues world over, is that the moderate Right To Life supporters aren't heard because the extreme ones are clogging up the airwaves shooting doctors, picketing clinics that do no more than give birth control/pelvic exams/what have you and other things that get them noticed.

Saying all Right To Lifers hate women is like saying all Muslims want the US to be destroyed. Just not true.

But the very vocal percentage do present themselves as representing all of the people on that side of the issue.

I honestly don't know how I feel about requiring a scan before an abortion. I believe in a women's right to choose. It's her body what she does with it is no one's business but hers. But I also believe in having all of the information before making a decision. Granted, a 13 year old who has been raped, most likely by someone she trusts, being shown a scan before the procedure is probably going to add to her trauma.

Chandellina: why is IVF impossible? Because if you believe that life begins at conception and so are against terminating the evolution of any life, you can't accept this because in a typical IVF many eggs are fertilised and not all are implanted into the womb. The unplanted ones are often disposed of (ie terminated, not permitted to continue their evolution).

if someone has those views, it's perfectly acceptable to fertilise only one egg. i guess your "impossible" made it sound like you meant something more.

on unbiased advice by healthcare professionals - i imagine that's true everywhere to some extent. here, the problem is no one can even bring up the possibility of keeping a baby, for fear of seeming pro-life or anti-choice. i think women are ill-served by an automatic assumption that they must have thought through their decision and knows it's right.

So, chandellina, you think it is better that women are better served by the assumption that they can't think through their decision and know it's right?

There is no grey area here. Either women are trusted to make decisions about their own reproduction or they aren't.

And if you can't trust them to do that how do you trust them to do anything?

Tee - i think women need to be well informed about their choices before making those decisions. just like for routine surgery or anything else. yet this issue is so loaded that nurses and GPs are unable to inform women on what is happening inside of them and what termination or motherhood might mean in the context of their lives (based on their age, financial circumstances, etc.) that the forms are signed, no questions asked.