to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

[BornSicky]

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

It seems that one of the few things that muslim and christian extremists have in common is their fear and obsession with women and a woman's right to control her own body and make her own decisions.

RobF My Mother was a drug addict and took Heroin and God knows what else when she was pregnant with me.

Should she have aborted me?

Well it's not like Nick Griffens 'cake' proposals have been passed into law, Lola.
Laws are made by more than one nutcase, you need a good proprtion of nutcases in power/in the electorate to influence policy & legislation.

Nick Griffin has not prosecuted women for having stillbirths though. It's not a good comparison.

The vast majority of the people on this thread have been careful to address this one law in this part of america. But because not every single poster has issued a disclaimer before saying what they think, everyone on the entire thread is accused of being a thick bigot? That's the kind of generalisation that I thought was the complaint in the first place

Are we not allowed to discuss the matter at hand without having to fend of accusations of this type?

I believe the BNP have actually won seats in the UK sinicalsal. But anyway are you trying to say that because this law has gotten in, that Americans are actually insane? Becuse that was I took offence to. So not sure of your point unless that is that you would prefer mumsnet be allowed to continue making ridiculous generalizations.

I have never voted for this law or to outlaw abortion I don't know anyone who would. As I live in "The Bible Belt" you would probably expect I would have met some of these people if we are so heavily populated with them.

How many of their proposals are the British people legally subject to, though, LolaRennt?
Whatever you and your friends do, there are enough people who do the opposite, plainly. I get you're annoyed about generalisating whole swathes of people - generalisations really irk me too - but you can't say these type of people don't exist. They do, in large enough numbers to cause real damage.

lola

sorry to say that on abortion you are wrong. gallup, CBS and New York Times polls indicate that more than 60% of americans think abortion should be illegal or restricted (for rape or incest only etc)

the divide between northeast and midwest is not the chasm you (and others) would like to be believed... it's a margain of 10-15%.

And opposition to abortion has steadily been rising for the last 15 years.

The new Healthcare Bill maintains a ban on the use of federal money to pay for abortions, except in cases of rape or incest, or if the life of a woman is in danger.

The USA demonstrably has an issue with a woman's right to choose when it comes to their fertility.

As for Nick Griffin... he's unelected and doesn't have the power to pass any legislation, and got less than 3% of the total votes in the last election.

America and Americans are diverse, of course they are, but in the specific area of women's rights in pregnancy, the majority of people share some sadly strong common ground.

Lola you seem to be saying that there is no problem?

So how have these court cases happened? Is it not true that abortion is illegal in mississipi?

America seems to embody the madonna/whore complex today.

Americans are a bit wierd arent they sometimes.

I don't think that that the U.S was ever a good place to be a woman really.

It will never apply to males because in america the men can do no wrong. It is obviously all the women.

They should wear a burqua and stay indoors unless the man lets them out.

Hell yes. I used to think Americans were a bit weird, but now I know they're fucking insane.R

probably quite a few of each. As long as they are black/hispanic/poor white trash, the great American penal machine will eat the lot of them.

I know a few 'thinking' Americans, they are wonderful, but they have mostly left America and are in the process of changing nationality

Why does America hate women so much?

"a bit feudal"... yup, that's one way to describe slavery and the American Civil War

Oh and for the record... you know the slavery thing... I am pretty sure the English had quite a bit to do with that But that's cool if you want to totally dissociate yourselves with that. Wish we could too.

orangehat Are you under the impression that abortion for all for any reason is legal all over the UK? are you so ignorant to your country's own policies? WHy hasn't anyone started a thread on mumsnet about this? WHy aren't you outraged about this?

Look I'm out of this thread because I see where it is going and I am fighting a losing battle. Bitching about Americans won't help. If you want to help why don't you write to your (tory) government and tell them you would like to see them put pressure on the US to change laws you think are unjust?

Or why don't you write to our (many sympathetic) lawmakers and say you think this weakens their placeas a world and that you feel it is a human rights violation.

Or you can continue to bull shit and act :( on the internet and then call Americans crazy. Up to you.

Fighting a losing battle TSH

lola I was quoting back one of your compatriots who suggested that the deep south was "a bit feudal". Considering that the feudalism arises from slavery and slavery was a major contributing factor in the American Civil War, I don't think my comment is anything but in context.

Huffing and puffing your way through a thread without evidencing why people are wrong to have these generalist or stereotypical notions hardly helps anyone to be the better educated people you'd like.

You know one reason that us Brits watch the states and its changing laws and society is because there's a saying that what happens in America will eventually follow to the UK. So, it's only to be expected that we will watch and will be critical, after all it may end up enshrined in or influencing our laws too...

FGS, TSH and Lola.
Laws matter, do they not? Laws reflect the prevailing values in a jurisdiction, do they not?
why concentrate on a few ill-considered generalising remarks on a talk forum, and ignore the actual issue? It's been brought up, and taken on board. Is that not enough?

Hideous artcle and very scary. What next? Committing women to psychiatric units because they want a divorce? Yes, I know we Brits did that, but we grew up, and abandoned the practice.

lola FFS try reading my posts before you speak to me like that.

For instance my first post on this thread.

"OrangeHat Sat 25-Jun-11 10:41:37
What a terrifying article. Very hard to believe.

With this sort of thing my DH always reminds me that the states in the US make their own laws on the whole and have their own flavour and ideas and so on. So with this sort of thing to look at the state rather than thinking the whole of the US has gone bananas IYSWIM.

I suppose it's like the fact I was shocked to find out that abortion is illegal in N Ireland. I had no idea. I assumed as a part of GB we would have the same laws. Not so.

So like that. What one bunch in the south are doing doesn't reflect across teh entire huge place IYSWIM.

Am I the only one quite @ someone on the thread having lottery millions?! "

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. If you are trying to make the point that US people are rational and sensible you are not doing a very good job of it quite frankly.

in response to the OP, no more frightening that a hundred other countries where abortion is not permitted, and women are stoned for being raped etc

(really should give up now)

If you are trying to make the point that US people are rational and sensible you are not doing a very good job of it quite frankly.

Orange hat I am not America. I alone can not be your proof that Americans are rational and sensible. I am one American among millions just one, I do not stand for every belief system, every race, every legal, sexual persuasion.

I dont see how I can explain that to you any further.

I listed all the quotes off the thread because I was told that nobody here had expressed anti american sentiment. Now I am being told I have to prove and educate people to not make those comments. But you see, I don't. I don't expect black people to stand up and tell every racist person they meet why they shouldn't be racist, I do expect them to be well pissed off when they are up against racism though.

lola you said this to me:

"orangehat Are you under the impression that abortion for all for any reason is legal all over the UK? are you so ignorant to your country's own policies? WHy hasn't anyone started a thread on mumsnet about this? WHy aren't you outraged about this?"

In light of my post earlier in the thread pointing out this very thing I don't see why you posted what you did. Unless you haven't actually bothered reading the thread and have just stormed in and started shouting at people.

Who said that "nobody here had expressed anti american sentiment"? I cannot see any posts on here which say that there are none. There are some posts with generalisations - they are there for all to see - so of course no-one has said that they don't exist.

It seems to me that you are throwing a load of straw men into this thread and successfully derailing it from people discussing the OP - ie the horrifying situation that some women in the US have found themselves in. Is there some reason that you don't want people talking about the cases highlighted in the article the OP has linked to?

Lola as an American as well, and one of the first people who usually not only pulls people up for American basing but also reports it to MN, I think in this case you over reacted.

Yes, there were some gross generalizations. But there has also been some really great discussion about the issue.

In fact I was amazed at how little of the posting was 'America is evil, grr grr grr' and even mentioned the fact to my husband.

I would like to point out, however, that the 'mid-west is conservative and the coasts are liberal' stereotype is just that. I used to live in San Francisco. There have been many campaigns to separate Northern and Southern California, LA tends to be very conservative compared to SF as is a lot of the Central Valley.

As for the mid-west, visit Iowa City, Iowa (where the University of Iowa is located and where I got my BA) to find a very liberal mid-west town.

lola

"I listed all the quotes off the thread because I was told that nobody here had expressed anti american sentiment. Now I am being told I have to prove and educate people to not make those comments."

that's not what i said. i said rather than ranting away because you feel you, personally, are being disabused, how about telling everyone why they are wrong.

I ably demonstrated that I am correct in understanding that women's rights in pregnancy are curtailed by law and that the majority of Americans agree with that view and you say nothing....

You are the one who came on to rant about sweeping generalisations, so I would have you'd have point to make as well [shrugs]

" I don't expect black people to stand up and tell every racist person they meet why they shouldn't be racist, I do expect them to be well pissed off when they are up against racism though."

You see, I'd expect everyone to call out anyone on racist behaviour or utterances, not just black people... but maybe I'm a bit funny like that!

For my twopennth I would say that perhaps the reason that people in the UK get so het up with things that happen in the US is because in general, the UK likes and respects the US. It's image of the US is often taken from TV series which often seem to point to a society which is tolerant and respectful. It then comes as a surprise to learn that the US is huge and what happens in New York (the place which has just legalised gay marriage, you know) doesn't happen in Kanas or Mississipi. The UK on the other hand is quite small, and in general, it pleases people to assume that the opinions of the political and media elite in London are the same for the whole country (which it isn't).

What is going in on in some states in the US is horrible. It is a situation that is already endured by women in much of Latin America:in Nicaragua for example abortion is not permitted under any circumstances whatsoever and in most Mexican states (it's a federal union like the US), while abortion is permitted in some circumstances that fact that the vast vast majority of medical practionners are neither prepared to perform the procedure nor trained how to, means that abortion is also impossible. In Mexico I have campaigned on behalf of various women who have been imprisioned for having a miscarriage or a stillbirth, all prosecuted for murder despite the fact the penal code includes abortion (they prosecute them for murder to ensure they are given a 20 plus year sentence rather than the 5 year one for abortion). On the other hand, the men who provide abortion pills, attack pregnant women, are rarely prosecuted.

In short, this happens all over the world; but it is somehow more shocking that it should happen in the US because it makes it clear that it could happen in the UK too. The US feels nearer than Mexico or Nicaragua I think to some people.

I think you're spot on catitainahaita

There's rarely any news from Latin America in the UK. The Chilean miners story was the last major item I recall, aside from the more general coverage about the Amazon and environmental issues.

It's probaly language related as well. America and the UK share a language, so easier to import/export culture and news.

And I think it's your last para that sums it up.... it could happen here too...

Right-wing governance is on the rise across the UK and Europe, so it's only natural we should be looking at and scrutinising right-wing sympathetic laws.