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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

457 replies

BornSicky · 24/06/2011 23:05

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

OP posts:
Tee2072 · 28/06/2011 21:37

But no one can answer what either of those things will be like.

Let's step away from abortion for one second and talk about motherhood.

How do you explain to anyone what it's like, regardless of their age etc? The all encompassing exhaustion/love/fear/guilt/etc etc etc that is motherhood.

You can't. Any more than you can tell someone what sex is like. You have to experience it to know how it will affect you.

I am not saying everyone should experience an abortion, far from it, but I do think you can explain only up to a point and then you have to trust that the person making the decision is up to doing so.

Catitainahatita · 28/06/2011 21:39

Chandellina: the chances of a fertilised egg being planted successfully on a womb are small. Generally they implant four or five at a time. They have to harvest and fertise more than that before implantation. Hence some remain unused.

chandellina · 28/06/2011 21:50

Tee - i'm sure on balance you are right. it's complex but i think it's important for women to be informed about things like their own fertility and future prospects for having children, and to understand the development of the embryo, stuff like that. I'm not anti-choice by any means. The issue is just so loaded that I think it's hard to get unbiased advice.

Catita - trust me I know pretty much all there is to know about IVF. In this country you are only allowed to have two embryos implanted (was up to three in women over a certain age, not sure if that's still the case). my point is that an infertile, pro-life woman who felt it was wrong to take the chance of an unused embryo would still be able to have IVF, so not "impossible." Some studies show low or no ovary stimulation, single-embryo IVF is more appropriate for some women anyway. I've had IVF three times and actually never had a situation where there was a leftover embryo, not that I would have had an issue if there had been.

Tee2072 · 28/06/2011 21:59

I would go beyond hard and into impossible. Everyone has an opinion and that colours everything they do, whether you are talking about abortion or which cut of meat makes the best roast!

bubbleymummy · 28/06/2011 22:01

cat, thanks for the apology.

"The situations of women locked up for suffering still births and miscarriages however is anything but hypothectical"

I didn't say it was - I said it was extreme and I will repeat - I do not think that miscarriage and still birth should be considered as murder. I can understand why it is investigated in situations where there was an intention to cause harm and in the cases that were linked to in the early pages of this discussion I believe it was because the baby was past the age of viability.

"Secondly, abortion is not rocket science. It means the termination of a pregnancy. It means putting an end to the growth of the embyro o foetus and not allowing it the chance to be born and have an autonomous existence. It is something that I think most women are capable of understanding without extra lessons provided."

Based on some of the posts on abortion debate threads I am actually not so sure. Many people refer to 'bundles of cells' or 'blobs' when the foetus is long past that stage of development. I think some people would not feel as comfortable with their decision to abort if they were looking at a scan of a 12 or 15 weeks old foetus - it doesn't just look like a 'bunch of cells' then! How can they be making an informed decision if they are not aware of that and if they are not comfortable with knowing that then maybe they should be reconsidering. Even some pro-choicers have a cut off point where they feel uncomfortable with the idea of abortion.

My 'murder in self defence' analogy was not to try to convince you of equality of life - we obviously disagree on that one. It was to try to explain how someone who is prochoice can accept/understand abortions in the situation where the mother's life is in danger. Many of us would accept murder in the case of self defence but that doesn't mean that we condone murder in any situation. Nor does it mean that because we accept murder in the case of self defence that we HAVE to/SHOULD accept murder for any reason.

"Because if you believe that life begins at conception and so are against terminating the evolution of any life, you can't accept this because in a typical IVF many eggs are fertilised and not all are implanted into the womb. "

I'm not sure how that proves that IVF is impossible. I think it just raises a similar ethical dilemma about the destruction of the fertilised embryos.

chandellina -

"i think women are ill-served by an automatic assumption that they must have thought through their decision and knows it's right."

I agree. I don't think we can assume anything. In fact, I think it is unethical to allow a woman to go ahead with the procedure without knowing if she has made an informed decision. People who are fully informed may argue that it is patronising etc but I can think of several situation where I am asked lots of questions that are irrelevant to me but that are relevant to others and they need to be asked to catch the people it may apply to - even if there are only a few.

kerrymumbles · 28/06/2011 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chandellina · 28/06/2011 22:06

kerrymumbles - fine and I can relate in some ways but try to keep some perspective on Americans' human rights vs. those in many other countries that are truly frightening. the original post has moved on but i can think of a lot of more frightening places to be a woman.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 28/06/2011 22:06

Oh so now we're on to the argument that other women are stupid and must be controlled for their own good. Do you bucketheads think women should be harangued for drinking a glass of wine in public/forbidden to work with certain types of machinery/be refused certain types of food in case they might be pregnant, or if they appear to be pregnant, because after all women are stupid and can't be allowed to make their own decisions about anything?

chandellina · 28/06/2011 22:08

bubbleymummy - so true about the "clump of cells." People think it's patronising to insist on a woman seeing a scan but i think it's pretty sensible to understand what you might be undertaking. Better scan technology has complicated the issue, for better and worse.

CheerfulYank · 28/06/2011 22:21

SGB I do not think other women are stupid (well, some are, same as men) and I'm really, really not misogynistic. Really, you think it's okay to stop an eight month fetus's heart with an injection? But not a seven month one that was born early? I'm not trying to be snide, I am genuinely curious.

And hypotheticals will crop on either side of the debate, yes.

Please let's not start acting like America is the Congo or something.

CheerfulYank · 28/06/2011 22:24

Tee is right too, in that "saying all Pro-Lifers hate women is like saying all Muslims want the US destroyed-just not true."

And again, let me state that abortion is legal in every state. Is it legal across the whole of the UK?

CheerfulYank · 28/06/2011 22:30

Speaking of Michelle Bachman... here

Hee hee hee....I always liked that Tom Petty guy.

bubbleymummy · 28/06/2011 23:04

No cheerful, it isn't legal in Northern Ireland unless the woman's life is in danger.

bubbleymummy · 28/06/2011 23:12

Sgb, what on earth are you talking about? Who has said women are stupid? Providing information and asking questions to ensure that someone is making an informed decision does not assume stupidity. Do you think that everyone has the exact same level of knowledge about everything? Do you not believe in ensuring that women make informed choices?

Why would you object to confirming that someone knows about a medical procedure that they are about to have? Should all surgery patients be whipped into theatres for operations without discussing it with them to ensure that they know what is going to happen in case you offend someone who has researched the operation thoroughly?

Catitainahatita · 28/06/2011 23:17

Sorry in that case i am misinformed. I shall have to check my information. Thank you for pointing this out.

Catitainahatita · 28/06/2011 23:26

My last post was to Chellina, I seem to have missed a page of comments spmhow. I shall read them in a minute

Catitainahatita · 28/06/2011 23:29

Chandellina I mean. More apologies.

bubbleymummy · 28/06/2011 23:32

Correction to my second last ( v long!) post:

"someone who is prochoice can accept/understand abortions in the situation where the mother's life is in danger."

should read

"someone who is pro-life can accept/understand abortions in the situation where the mother's life is in danger."

Catitainahatita · 29/06/2011 00:39

Yes, Bubbleymummy I agree. My posts are not designed necessarily to change your (or anyone else's) mind. I am trying to put across the other point of view because I think your point of view is valid; but that I don't share it. I am trying to point out that the prochoice argument is not trying to force anyone to have an abortion if they don't want one. Also, I want to make it clear that the antichoice view is not the only moral perspective in existence and it must recognise this. By making abortion illegal except in cases that the mother's life is in danger means that the State necessarily accepts one moral point of view as the only valid one. It obliges those who don't share your moral perspective to obey your rules (which conversely the prochoice argument does not).

Also I mentioned the extreme examples in Mexico because I want people to be aware of the (what I hope are unintended but sometime wonder are very much intended) consequences of enforcing one moral perspective. I don't necessarily mean to imply that you are anyone explicitly condone them. In a state where all abortions are iilegal except in certain circumstances or where all abortion is illegal whatever the circumstances(like Nicaragua), this necessarily means that all miscarriages and still births potentially subject to criminal inquiries. It means that some women will be unjustly imprisoned. In Nicaragua it also means that many women die because of their pregnancies. Abortion is illegal in NI, but a good deal of women are able to pay to go the UK to get one. I also doubt that in NI a women whose pregnancy is putting her life in danger will be denied an abortion.

Catitainahatita · 29/06/2011 00:44

Or at least I hope so. i admit I don't know minutae of law in NI.

Oh and "are anyone" should read "or anyone". Sorry.

tadjennyp · 29/06/2011 02:12

Well that's just barbaric about Nicaragua catita. Pregnancy should not equal a death sentence. Do they try to save the foetus that they are protecting by prohibiting all abortions or does it die with the mother? Just hideous.

JarethTheGoblinKing · 29/06/2011 02:13

I'm terrified by all if this, not sure I can read the whole thread.. the article is fucking terrifying.

swallowedAfly · 29/06/2011 02:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

swallowedAfly · 29/06/2011 02:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 06:42

I disagree. Abortion is illegal in NI unless the mother's life in danger. People in NI are not uncivilised, they do not think a woman is less than human or does not have human rights (human foetuses are human too). Women are not impisoned or prosecuted for having a miscarriage or for their baby being stillborn. One is not a direct consequence of the other.