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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

457 replies

BornSicky · 24/06/2011 23:05

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 29/06/2011 06:46

As a person who is very reluctantly pro-choice, I would agree that it would be impossible and extremely unwise to outlaw abortion entirely.

But I would like to see them greatly reduced by better access to birth control, more knowledge on the subject, and support systems in place so that women don't have to choose between motherhood and school or a career.

As far as Michelle Bachmann goes, thankfully the longest a president can serve is eight years, and thankfully the president's power is actually quite limited, unless said president gets a bunch of fellow lunatics voted into Congress. Of course one can do a lot of damage in eight years, but even the Conservatives I know are saying NO WAY IN HELL to that woman.

Tee2072 · 29/06/2011 07:03

bubbleymummy as a person who lives in NI (as I think you do too? or did I make that up?) I would have to agree that we are civilized, mostly. There is still too much "us and them" in this country for my comfort and the abortion issue is part of that. When you let religion lead your government to the extent it does here some basic human rights are going to get stepped on, including a woman's right to choose.

Cat, yes a person in NI can go to the rest of the UK. If they have the money for a flight, a hotel etc etc etc. At least in the US you can hop in your car if you live in a state that restricts access to abortion.

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 07:21

What about the basic human right to life? It is a human foetus we are talking about after all.

CoteDAzur · 29/06/2011 07:22

"I also think that after 24 weeks of pregnancy women who drink to excess and/ or take illegal drugs are incredibly selfish. I have worked with fetal alcohol syndrome children."

And you haven't heard that drinking in the first trimester causes the most severe cases of FAS?

Tee2072 · 29/06/2011 07:32

Except that you, and all people who are anti-choice, are putting the foetuses human rights above the mother's.

The foetus cannot make decision, cannot speak, cannot even breath on it's own. In which case it's life is not equal to it's mother's, whether the reason for the abortion is to save her actual life or it's just not a good time to have a baby. Is it better to bring a baby into the world who will have no food and no shelter and possibly no future than to abort it and not put it into that position to begin with?

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 08:24

Not putting it above Tee, putting it equal to. You don't consider it a life, we do. Presumably you would not approve of infanticide even if the woman felt it was a bad time to have a baby/ she loses her job/gets evicted or whatever.

Tee2072 · 29/06/2011 08:26

But it can't be equal. A foetus is nothing but a parasite, to put a slightly unpleasant word to it. It cannot survive without it's host. An infant can.

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 08:31

Are you saying that a parasite is not a living thing?

Tee2072 · 29/06/2011 08:34

I'm saying that a parasite is not equal to it's host. It only lives because the host lives. Or because the host allows it to live.

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 08:36

Well you accept it is alive at least so the only thing we disagree on is that IMO life is life whereas you think one life can be weighed against another.

CheerfulYank · 29/06/2011 08:41

Tee so are you against abortion if the fetus is at an age where it can live outside of its mother? I'm just wondering, not arguing. :)

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 29/06/2011 09:36

You can't give foetuses equal rights to women from the moment of conception because if that were the case every woman of childbearing age would have to face a monthly medical examination and interrogation nd possible murder charge (oh, hang on....). Implanted embryos often fade away and die before the woman in whose womb they are has even had time to consider she's a few days late and buy a pregnancy test. Sometimes the foetus is defective and could't possibly live outside the womb (no brain stem, seriously malformed internal organs, whatever).
ANd the difference between terminating a foetus at 24 weeks and fighting to save the live of a baby born at 23 weeks is that it's the woman's choice. Women take priority over foetuses (which includes, of course, the right of a woman to choose to risk herself for the sake of her unborn child). To think otherwise is to consider women incubators, not human beings.

slug · 29/06/2011 09:37

stats for bubblymummy though admittedly only USA stats at the moment.

slug · 29/06/2011 09:41

slightly different UK profile where around 48% of UK women have an abortion already have children rather than the 60% of US women. Part of that could possily be put down to the easier availability of contraception in the UK, plus the ever beloved NHS means UK women have better health care.

Tee2072 · 29/06/2011 09:48

Cheerful I am not sure I am ever for abortion. I am 100% for a woman's right to choose, however!

I am out and about at the moment so hard to type a long post on my phone. I'll try and do so once I get home!

::really needs an iPad::

GettingBig · 29/06/2011 09:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CheerfulYank · 29/06/2011 09:52

Oh I'm sorry Tee, I didn't mean to say "for" or "against" abortion. I'm always just curious as to people's thoughts on issues.

GettingBig I'm sorry you have to go through that-eating disorders are hell. Congratulations on your pregnancy.

larrygrylls · 29/06/2011 09:57

There has to be a balancing in law of a woman's right to choose and a foetus's right to live. Most civilised countries compromise in having an end date for abortion between 18 and 24 weeks.

Tee, a foetus is absolutely not a parasite. If it were, the human race would have adapted to fight it, not to accommodate it. Sure, it has some characteristics in common with a parasite but it has a critical difference in terms of its genetic make up. Your argument about how a foetus should have less rights due to its dependency are really ill thought out (or cruel, if you have thought about it). How about we terminate all those on ventilators or too mentally ill to look after themselves? It is the same argumetn.

The feminist argument about a right to choose at any point in a pregnancy is ridiculous. Why not extend it to infanticide. Realistically, an infant is in some ways more of a "parasite" to a woman after birth than before. Why not have the right to kill it if you no longer choose to care for it?

As for the OP, America is a continent. Some of the southern states are appalling places to be female or not white. On the other hand, some other states are the best places in the world to be female (or not white). The post is pretty provocative.

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 10:07

sgb - can you really not see the difference between a woman intentionally ending a pregnancy and a woman who loses a baby through no fault of her own? I really don't think you're that stupid.

ChristinedePizan · 29/06/2011 10:10

bubblymummy - sgb clearly outlined the difference between the two: one is the woman's choice, one is not. Her post was very clear I thought

bubbleymummy · 29/06/2011 10:24

Really? I don't. Still looks like she's arguing that you can't separate the two.

CurlyBoy · 29/06/2011 10:47

After days of reading this I think it's time for me to put my 2 cents in.

I don't have an opinion on abortion per se. The issue for me is choice. I feel that women should have the right to choose what happens to their own body. Period. Until a foetus is viable OUTside her body, the womans' right is paramount. If it is only sustaining life at the sufferance of the mother then she has the right to choose what happens to it. I don't buy the argument that it is a "person" or "a life" until it can survive out side the body. Once it is born then it is alive, until then it's not much better than a parasite. (Strong words I know, flame proof suit is ON) We went through IVF and I do NOT believe that those embryos were a life. Yes, we mourned when it did not result in a pregnancy but we were mourning the potential child and not a life.

CheerfulYank · 29/06/2011 10:48

So is six months the cut off, then, CurlyBoy ?

ChristinedePizan · 29/06/2011 10:53

SGB said: the difference between terminating a foetus at 24 weeks and fighting to save the live of a baby born at 23 weeks is that it's the woman's choice

How is that unclear? Confused

Miggsie · 29/06/2011 10:54

If they are proceeding with prsoecutions under this dreadful law then in all cases where a mother is prosecuted the father should be prosecuted as well as an "accessory" because he is. Then people might actually notice this is a shit law rather than ignoring it, as it is poor, uneducated women who politically count for nothing suffering as a result of it so no one fights for them.

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