to ask does Breastfeeding need promoting?

[mummamizz]

It's a bit of a follow on from the thread about the controversial "apple dumplings" Anyone who wants to watch it it's here

If your answer is yes Why? How would you personally do it? What message would you want to get across? Do you think advertising would make a difference?

pingu
I have to disagree.
when dc2 was born, I managed just fine. had no family nearby and dh worked from 2 weeks after birth. dc1 was just 3. lots of tips here on mn, how to make things easier with older young children around.

sorry that it was so hard for you, though.

"Breast feeding is really difficult to the majority of people"

Bollocks! You may have found it difficult (your attitude may have contributed) but don't imagine everyone else does

And *Lunabelly" - what ignorant posts.

While I agree that BF support is a very good thing with the BF rates so low in Britain, I really wonder why it is that women need so much support to do what has been done as long as mammals have existed? It needn't be difficult, really. I had no experience of babies whatsoever before DD1 and got no BF support (didn't think to ask) but managed just fine.

Pingu - that's exactly the point. Support should be available to everyone. Isn't that partly the point to this thread?

No-one should feel guilty for ffing, but plenty do because they feel they've failed. That's why everyone needs the access to support, either to help overcome difficulties or to move on without guilt.

As previous posters have already said, normalising rather than promoting. The NHS does fund some paid peer supporters but most BFCs are volunteers. Obviously, as volunteers, BFC'ing has to fit in around whatever else we do which has its own problems.

Paid BFCs would be a good start and lots of them too. I love the idea of extras on TV/film just getting on with breastfeeding in the background too.

Can we get rid of dolls that come with bottles and bottle feeding on children's TV too? DD1 (breastfed for almost five years) was convinced for a while that tiny babies had bottles and breast milk, then older children just had breast milk.

When I had both of my DDs at the first sign of problems the advice was to top up with formula. With DD1 this led to big supply problems for me, and her being unable to latch. Topping up with AF isn't necessarily the beginning of the end, but it can be disastrous for some women. We only got back from there through bloody-mindedness and Kelly Mom as there was no support available. When I said I'd express my milk to top DD2 up if she needed it, the midwife wrote 'reluctant to give formula?!' (yes with that punctuation) in my notes.

lunabelly - I think you misunderstood me when I said, "We need to see more of our sort of people".

I mean people like me who breastfeed - normal, regular people, as opposed to lentil-weavery earth mothers, or militant exhibitionist types - the sorts of women that most people think of breastfeeders as being.

I just mean if that was more the visible face of breastfeeding, it might make it seem more like something that people can relate to and perhaps attempt to try, if that makes sense. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

And as for breastfeeding babies in TV shows, it would be easy to just wrap a doll up in a blanket and hold it to the breast - you wouldn't actually need lactating actors with their own babies!

Again, it's just about putting it out there and normalising it; making it no big deal so that hopefully we move on from it being such a divisive issue.

Oh yeah, and just to confirm - breastfeeding isn't necessarily some desperate, exhausting, tied-to-the-house scenario.

I went to a full-day wedding when DD was 5 days old and fed her as and when. I'm not saying that to get a medal, before anyone jumps on me. Just that I found it freed me up, rather than tied me down, since there's none of that bottle-preparing and sterilising faff.

And I'm another one with no family close by - none in the country when my two were born.

It would be an excellent thing to have a bfc come to every new mother and encourage her to try a first feed at least to get some colostrum into the baby and then to offer continuing support should she wish to keep trying for the time she is in hospital. This might just get more women who would never have contemplated breast feeding at least trying it, do the babies some good and even get some carrying on.
However as has been said the chances of this happening are zero with funding the way it is.
A bfc should be coming every day for the first week or so like a HV does automatically. Not just available to phone or be in a centre. Those first days with your first baby can be quite horrendous.

My first baby wasn't interested, lost weight and I was told to give formula. I did but also kept bf as I felt quite emotional about it. Bf for 10 months eventually.

Contrary to the opinion that subsequent babies are harder to feed I found the 2nd and 3rd easier to fit in and certainly by the third [which is a sad indication of morale amongst bfers] I had the confidence to ignore the HV telling me to top up.

Perhaps MNers could build a network of bf support volunteers.

It doesn't necessarily need advertising - but it needs to be promoted as the norm rather than as other to formula.

Pingu, bf is too difficult for mere mortals?

That is exactly the sort of attitude which needs to be called into question.

What you said in your post above maybe your experience but is NOT true for every woman - it certainly isn't my experience!

I have very little outside help, but to me bf was actually the easier option - bf the baby was about the only sitting down time I got! The last thing I needed when looking after a new baby, toddler and an older child was a load of extra washing up, sterilising bottles, buying formula, mixing bottles, getting it to the right temp etc. My most favourite thing about bf is you have it right there, ready mixed, sterile, at the right temperature, and an instant way to stop baby crying!

Didn't realise this raised me to goddess status! ;)

" the visible face of breastfeeding,"

Isn't this one a bit tricky though? How do you make it "visible". I bf wherever I was at the time and never had any comments. Whoever I was with at the time would be aware that I was feeding the baby but anyone passing by would have been unlikely to notice. Most of the time it just appeared that I was cuddling the baby.

BF is heavily promoted, just not heavily supported. I am a week away from my due date with first, and like most women determined to give BF a go. However, although the MW I have encountered thus far have been beyond pushy about the fact I should BF, inc one saying that if I give in to one FF it will undo all the 'good' work of BF, they were also unable to tell me what I do if I am struggling, other than 'battle through, it gets easier'. I'm very lucky to have my mum who BF 4 babies on hand to help, bit realise there are many women who don't have that.

That's true juule - exactly the same for me. I don't really know what the answer is, since as I said up thread, I feed discreetly.

God forbid you don't feed discreetly - all hell will break loose in terms of the unforgivable sin you'd be committing. But that's a whole nother thread which was done to death a couple of weeks ago.

The rates reported are rubbish anyway. I was listed as BF when each of mine were born, i didnt, the midwives put that to help their stats, they were quite open about it. Saying well you might decide to later so its just to keep my option open (as a tick on a form will help that?) From asking a few friends, and then as many as i could think of who have had a baby in the last 3 years (since my DS was born)

EVERYONE i know in with a baby in the last 3 years has been put down as BF, only one of them did, and that was only a first feed anyway! No wonder it looks like loads take it up then fail. They dont at all, we didnt start in the first place, so when the midwives/HVs ask again a few days/weeks after and we all said NO it went down as people failing to BF. No, actually exercising our right to feed to our babies from the start thanks, shove your screwy stats!

I completely agree that more help should be available but I think people should be aware that plenty of us don't have any trouble.
One would be forgiven, certainly after a quick glance at the MN feeding board, for thinking that it is always an awful struggle to get feeding established. Not so. Every mother I know, with the exception of one of my sisters, breastfed. And none had any issues or difficulty. I think suggesting it is difficult can deter people. We need to make it clear that it often is easy, but when it's not ensure that adequate help is available.

Faverolles - I did ask her if it was possible her DC could be tongue-tied. She said surely they would have spotted it - I told her that you would be surprised what they can miss sometimes

MarianneM - ignorant? You have made my point for me very well with that comment, thank you :o
You managed to BF successfully and you are very lucky - but many are not able to do that. Fact. Sometimes any or all forms of support are not able to make it easier for new mothers. But some people are so successful at lactating they have excess they can donate to a milk bank. My nan did this way back in the day.

I mixed fed because I simply couldn't, no matter how I tried, produce enough milk to satisfy my babies, but wanted to give them at least SOME of my milk. And because I have hideous ugly useless tits that don't do their job, are too big and painful (usually around 38JJJ when feeding, to give you some idea of the scale of the problem) to be safe. The last two days I have spent in agony / dosed up on hospital issue painkillers, because I quite often have to live with agonising back and shoulder pains due to them - I'd cut them off myself if I could, since they've made my life a misery since I was 13 - and to top it all, they don't even do their job?

MarrianneM, Do you see now why I get so angry at the bullying that - at least in my area - seems to go hand in hand with BF promotion? Do you see now why I get so angry when I see women belittled and made to feel like shit because they genuinely can't or just plain don't want to?

I pulled red meat and cars (I actually meant traffic pollution and DCs being carted everywhere leading to rising obesity levels) out of my arse the air before I had downed my necessary 4 coffees. Plus the painkillers.
I've grown up with the clunk-click and kill your speed, but when we do the school run, there will be 100's of cars, usually with only one person in them, pumping crap into the air - that seems far more of a public health issue than how women feed.
I'm asthmatic because it runs in my family, because I lived on a traffic rat run for 13 years, and due to allergies - I should imagine mother FF me was only a very tiny factor, if at all.

To promote BF using such scare tactics is unacceptable.
I am all for BF, and have always tried it straight off, thinking "maybe this time it will work", but it never does, so have to mix feed. If I am ever blessed with another baby, I probably won't even try because the pain and frustration, coupled with depressive tendencies, at my advance age I just cannot be doing with any more. Feeling crap already, I don't welcome being made to feel crapper, nor does any new mum.

And I wasn't talking about BF groups promoting, but the NHS promoting it.
Now, having had many years between DD1 and DS, I've noticed that the NHS change their tune all the bloody time about everything. And vested interests? No, but a weird obsession with what women do. I can think of no other "thing" that divides people (who should be on the same page) so much.
If I was in a cafe and a woman was made to feel crap for BF, I would defend her right to BF as much as I defend a FF's right to be not vilified.

StealthPolarBear - bottoms are normal, but kids still giggle when a grown up says them - it's nothing to do with breasts or feeding with them not being normal, and everything to do with small children being actually quite strange :)

Oh, and have never watched Loose Women, as from what I have read I think I would defenestrate the telly. I avoid daytime TV and piss about on the internet debating random bollocks subjects with complete strangers instead. Sometimes, I even do some housework :o :o :o

I still don't understand the pollution issue. Are you saying we should only ever focus on one single issue at a tme? Or do you accept that public health bodies can have more than one prioirity, and in fact having one priority (unless it was very vague such as "improving the health of the nation" would be incredibly short sighted?

Luna re. tongue tie, my ds has an obvious, right at the end of his tongue TT, none of the midwives spotted it, and when I pointed it out said it was a short tongue, not a tongue tie. The paed who we saw before we left hospital said "oh, I've never seen one of those before". A midwife friend of over 20 years experience having delivered hundreds of babies had never seen one til I showed her ds's. My GP told me it's a myth that TT causes problems in BFing (I did offer to show him my damaged, oddly shaped and coloured nipples, due to his TT, but he declined)
The paed at the maxillo facial clinic at the hospital 50 miles away from home, the only one in the area that deals with TT told me it was a very significant tongue tie, and wondered why it had taken me nearly 12 weeks to get him to the clinic.
This is just one area where knowledge is woefully lacking. If I struggled to get this dealt with, and his TT is as obvious as the nose on your face, you can be certain that this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I do wonder how many women are unable to feed their babies because of undiagnosed tongue ties.

And where do you see women belittled and made to feel like shit by the NHS?
Apparently Scandanavian countries have very high bf rates - almost all women bf, because they have received promition and support so they want to and they can. Because of this women there is acceptance of women who can't/don't - all have their reasons after all, same here. Only here there seems to be some perception that a bfer bfing is somehow criticising a woman who doesn't

Faverolles - Sorry it took so long for them to find that out...DD3's TT was unapparent to me until a random visit to students who are yet to become jaded the dentist, and I presume that DS probably has it as well. Apparently it often goes hand-in-hand with dentist said long medical name gaps in the front teeth as well...which we have...

SPB - I mentioned upthread about being mauled about by a BF estlablisher NHS workery lady who didn't even bother telling me who she was and what she wanted when she grabbed hold of my tits and upset both me and DD1.
Or a MW who yelled at me because I'd told her how we'd topped her up with F because she'd drained both boobs and was still hungry (plus I was in agony).
It happens.

The government (and by extension the NHS) picks and chooses their issues and should address the car thing...but they never would. Too much money in that petrol stuff.

Does anybody know what the rates of breastfeeding actually are? Really? I see posts here about the 'low rates' but what empirical data is there to support that perception?

I personally think there are many more breastfeeders who fall under the data radar because they feed discreetly or not in view or just choose not to answer questions about the manner in which they feed their babies.

BF threads always seem to end up in a 'them and us' scenario and it's a shame; mothers are mothers the world over, not every aspect of parenting needs a lot of grandstanding and promotion, surely?

Lunabelly, you know what? Some midwives are horrible. When I had my first child, a mw shouted at me for bleeding on the sheets, because she had to change them. I think most people on this thread are arguing for BETTER support, which would hopefully mean mw's would no longer shoving your boob into your baby's mouth, but would have time for proper counselling. The boob-grabbing thing happened to me too! Not nice, but I just put it down to her being an old battleaxe and got on with it!

The car/ obesity thing is a complete red herring - the gov IS tackling these things as well- my children's school has a 'walk to school' campaign, and a car-sharing scheme. Also, a gov-sponsored activity/sports anti-obesity thing. Also an eat-well' campaign. In fact, the gov never stops banging on about obesity in children! So is it ok to have some bf support too?

What a load of trash it is that breast feeding is easy. If it was easy - why would anyone need any support - your argument for support would be void if it were easy!

It is quite RARE for it to be easy. A Lot of people are tied to the house, extremely tired etc. That is why there are so many threads about needing support.

I for one had a mother who breastfed all 3 children (inc. me). She was an antinatal nurse so was very very keen on breast feeding. I was brought up to believe in breast feeding. I was so keen to breastfeed that I spent a whole week in hospital trying to get ds1 to latch on properly (something I doubt would be allowed today).

I got home and had an emergency MW out to help me breastfeed on about 4 separate occassions. However, it was too hard. It was beyond difficult. It was a fucking nightmare.

The people I know who breastfed found the first 6-7 weeks of countless feeds day and night unbelievably hard on them - and those were my friends who had children that latched on quite well (mine did not).

I do not know one person who found it easy.

BECAUSE of all the promotion of breastfeeding (posters of big musle bikers holding their baby saying "my wife gives him the best - breast" - and that kind of poster) I was put under the belief that by NOT breast feeding I was failing my child. I was embarrased to get a bottle out in public as I felt that people were thinking worse of me!

Having my first child made me realise that all the assumptions that everyone can breast feed is rubbish. I think the promotion that they have currently is cruel. It makes out that if you don't breast feed you are not giving your child the best.

Well perhaps the best for your child is a mother who isn't made to feel guilty for using a bottle. Perhaps the best for the child is a mother who isn't driven into post natal depression due to the exteme attempts to breast feed.

If it comes easily or you have shed loads of help in the first 6 weeks - great breast feed. If not, all you mothers out there listening - YOU ARE NOT FAILING YOUR BABY TO GIVE IT A BOTTLE! Do what you feel you can cope with.

CurlyGirly - BF support yes, bullying women, no.

No you are quite right Pingu. All of my relatives are friends are liars.