not sure if we've gone too far with punishment?

[Humphreythehamster]

DD (7) stole £5 from her teachers desk drawer at school today. She then lied and said that we had given it to her for cake stall money. When I collected her this afternoon her teacher asked me about it and I said that this wasn't true. Teacher was lovely about it and we tackled DD together and after a few more lies she finally admitted that she took the money.

DH and I have cancelled her violin lessons and brownies for the rest of the term so she won't go to either until September, she is also writing a letter of apology to her teacher now.

Is this too harsh? About right? not enough? I am so disappointed in her and upset that this has happened :(

What izzy said as well.

Understanding is more effective than punishing, unless she is a sociopath

OP - you did right imo, I would do the same. Stealing money from a teacher's desk and then lying? Bllody hell fire, that needs nipping in the bud straight away - which you have done. Good for you.

Bet she won't do it again

Of course there's nothing Dickensian about teaching children right from wrong, or that inappropriate behaviour can have negative consequences, Staying.

However, it is my belief that these lessons should begin comparatively early in the child's life within a loving framework of praise and positive reinforcement, and by encouraging the child to explore the concepts of morality and social responsibility in an age-appropriate manner.

It's also my belief that core values should be established by the time a child is seven, and if a child who has hitherto given no undue cause for concern exhibits undesirable behaviour I would seek to understand why before I gave any thought to suitable consequences for their misdemeanour(s).

I've also found it constructive to ask the child what penalty they believe should be imposed for their misbehaviour - sometimes young children judge themselves far more harshly than we do, and they need reassurance that occasional lapses from grace are not greatly important in the grand scheme of things.

There is an enormous onus on parents to get it right as our children are our legacy to the world, and there are already far too many individuals on this planet who have been damaged, and are being damaged, by their childhood experiences.

The OP has alluded to her own negative childhood experiences in expressing the desire to give her children the precious gift of unconditional love. The trick is to make children feel secure and loved and 'good enough' even though we may disapprove of their behaviour to the extent that we are moved to administer consequences.

If I should feel that I may have been unduly harsh, I would have no problem in rescinding my decision because children need to know that even adults don't always get it right when the heat of the moment is allowed to cloud sound judgement.

Don't cancel activities that are meant to teach focus, honesty and good character!!! She needs the activities.
Make her give up something that is not building character and values: TV, any kind of screen, non-educational toys. Try to figure out why she did it if you can, but she is only 7.
Talk in a loving way about trust.
Never lie to her.

I think you are making a BIG mistake with the violin. Playing an instrument is all about discipline, honesty, hard work, concentration and building a trusting relationship with a caring teacher. THESE ARE THE THINGS SHE NEEDS.

Valium really, it's fairly obvious why the child lied about stealing the money. She probably panicked, particularly if she saw her mother upset and tearful.

Some understanding of the child's perspective wouldn't go amiss.

Calm discussion in best imo, not over-reactions.

I think part of the problem here, for the OP, was that this is a parenting situation that I doubt any of us would have thought about or planned for beforehand. I'm willing to bet that, if you'd asked the OP whether her dd would do this before the incident, she would have said there's no way her dd would steal, especially not money from a teacher.

So when it happened, the OP was caught on the back foot, and had to do some fast thinking - something like this needs to be dealt with pretty swiftly, especially at that age, so that the consequences don't become detatched from the 'crime'. Perhaps if she'd been able to leave it some days before imposing a consequence (or if she'd read a thread like this on mumsnet before her dd stole the money), she might have made a different decision on punishment - who knows.

I do think that you have a good point about rescinding a punishment/consequence if you decide it is too harsh - though I would still worry about sending an ambivalent message to the child - it's a difficult one, Izzy.

There would be calm discussion in my house if my child had done this. I am not a shouter or an over reactor(apart from internally swearing a lot! ) I would try my best to find out why my child had stolen the money BUT the punishment would be the same. Needs nipping in the bud whatever the reasons imo.

I think it's OK and not too harsh - stealing is a serious thing, and will only become more so as she gets older. You would be doing her no favours in the long run by being soft on this. When she's older she won't be able to get out of the consequences by saying sorry and having a nice little talk with about her feelings

I agree!

Not harsh in light of how difficult she can be.
No harm will come to her by not going to the activities you have banned, but a lot of trouble may be down the road if she sees you back down now. In the long run you have made the right choice.

I think it wasn't harsh enough. lying is IMO about as bad as it gets and I would go belistic.

We recently had similar, ds had played with a can of my shaving foam in the bath and when I came to use it found the can was empty. When I questioned him about it he flatly denied having done it, to the extent that he came across totally indignant that I could possibly have accused him of such a thing, was adament he hadn't done it but I knew he had! I told him I knew he'd done it and took away his computer privilages for a week, and he just shrugged at me. Eventually he admitted having taken it and lying about it. It wasn't the can of foam - it was the fact he'd lied about it that I was annoyed at. He was sent to his room for the rest of the day (we had ILs staying so he missed out on that afternoon with his grandparents) and I took away his ipod and have told him that I'm not actually sure when he'll get it back.

I also had a long talk with him about how if he continues to lie then people will never believe him, (boy who cried wolf style) and how maybe one day he'll be telling the truth about something important but because he lies nobody will believe he's telling the truth and he or someone else could get into trouble.

I also said that while if he's done something wrong he will get into trouble about it, if he does something wrong and then lies about it, he'll get into far more trouble than he would have otherwise.

I remember taking money from my mum's purse when I was about six, and being caught by my dad. I have no idea why - I didn't have anywhere to spend it - he didn't shout, just took me to my mum and got me to tell her. She looked really hurt, and I remember feeling very ashamed. That was punishment enough for me. Perhaps your daughter just saw it and gave in to temptation - I'm sure it's not the start of a life of crime! But it's up to you and your husband to decide on the punishment, so don't beat yourself up about it x

just one opinion

the letter is IMO the best thing

Maybe one week of missed brownies would do. Perhaps go for a walk and a talk with her that day instead.

A long sentence seems excessive to me.

wannaBe am with you on the lying - I detest it. Worse than the bad deed imo. the bad deed does not necessarily signify lack of respect etc but the lying does.

I think I would have taken her to the nearest police station an got a policeman to show her the juvenile cells!

I would also have made her earn £5 plus interest! with extra chores.

I dont think violin and brownies being cancelled was the right thing as brownies is all about honesty, good deeds etc and the violin is a commitment. However, with hindsight it is always easier to decide what to do. Plus we dont thave the "shock" factor of finding out our dd has lied and stolen.

As you can see, Humphrey, I was slaving over a hot keyboard while you were adding to your post!

Please accept my assurance that I did not set out to criticise your parenting techniques/methods when I sought to counter some of what I perceived to be extreme views expressed on these pages.

If it's any consolation to you, my cousin in Oz had 4 dcs under 5 years old followed by a gap of some years before the arrival of her 5th

I'm sure my cousin will be happy for you to know that, throughout childhood and well into her teens, the 5th dc led her a merry dance.

In my cousin's words, she was only able to cope through the knowledge that she'd 'raised 4 good 'uns and done nothing differently with the 5th'

The 5th dc has settled down, family of her own, but my cousin and I suspect that one of her dcs will soon be giving her a run for her money - and then she'll begin to understand what she put her dps through.

It's life, it's short, enjoy and celebrate your children, and make sure that you've all got a wealth of happy memories to take forward to the future.

YANBU to be cross with her, YABU to ban Brownies and violin lessons, if anything these should be encouraged as more likely to stop re-offending. Brownies teaches about responsibilities towards self and others whilst creating social bonds, violin lessons gives her achievements outside school to be proud of. I would leave it at what you have already done and concentrate on talking to her about your feelings and right and wrong. plus if punishment goes on for too long she'll feel wronged which is not what you want.

Wanabe i'm not surprised your DC lied to you I would if that was the penalty for doing something wrong, i'd be terrified of telling you anything incase you went overboard. It was a can of shaving foam,

I think Snailoon is spot on!
She's only 7 and mostly likely acted on impulse and was frightened and lied.For my DC disappointing me would be punishment enough.She did it because she is human.it is human to make mistakes and showing her compassion and forgiveness would teach her a lot more.
I do think it is important to your LO to have interests.Do you just want her hanging round the house doing nothing in 5 years time?If you take her interests away from her as a punishment it is going to teach her not to enjoy hobbies incase they are taken away from her.I know I was that child!

and I think your punishment is more a reflection of your own embarassment than the actual crime.

I can't understand everyone getting their knickers in a twist about lying, is it really the worst thing a child can do? Compared with bullying, being hurtful or spiteful, excluding others, or stealing for that matter. I always call mine if I think they are lying, which is rare, but all this punishment for six weeks stuff when we lie all the time is just bizarre to me (we must lie as adults numerous times a day 'lovely to see you' 'we must get together some time' 'I've no idea where my husband is'). No wonder it is hard to get this accross to children. I've found just telling them that we don't tell lies and it's not nice works, but now have the problem that my children are plainly and directly honest and I'm having to tell them to lie in social situations (e.g. 'I really like my knitted jumper, Auntie Barbara)

Stealing is just plain wrong, and I think would have been better dealt with by a relevant week long punishment, an apology to the teacher and doing jobs to earn the amount, then given to charity was an excellent idea. But now you have said the punishment, I do think you have to stick to it.

'But now you have said the punishment, I do think you have to stiCk to '

I also think this is pretty standard stuff, ok, you are humiliated as someone said as she stole from a teacher. But, plenty of children do steal a piece of cake when no-one is looking, or pick up money off some one, we have had to return toys my 5 year old swore were hers to school, without them becoming mini-criminals.

She is seven, and I think seeing children as essentially good but making the odd mistake is the way to go. I don't agree with humiliating her in front of others, and if you tell the Brownie/violin teacher about it, you will really be over-egging it.

I also feel a bit sorry for the violin teacher, why should she be out of pocket as you want to punish your child in this way? I guess you may have to pay out to keep your slot (and perhaps the same with a Brownie group who may have a waiting list).

I am in agreement with Izzy and Bootymum regards how to deal with situations such as this and how removing children from positives in their lives ( brownies/music, which are both avbout confidence building, socialising) is perhaps not the best choice.

Humphrey, I think, and I may be wrong, that by posting this thread you did actually have some doubts about whether you were being too harsh or not.

If you do believe you have been too harsh then maybe you can talk to your little girl and explain that you are very clear that what she did was wrong and that there needs to be a consequence, but that you're not sure that the consequences you chose were appropriate. This is a really good situation to get into a great discussion about several things, like how you make snap decisions when you feel emotional, how our actions affect others.........list goes on. Get into some discussion with her about what she feels would be an appopriate consequence.

By doing so you a) show your child that you are human and can make mistakes b) you are reasonable c) you care about her d) that actions do have consequences for everyone all without losing face.

You may be really surprised. In my experience of working with children, they will often be harder on themselves than you would be.

If you don't believe you were harsh after reading all of the answers then you carry on and carry out the 'punishment'.

Also you could let her do Brownies etc without losing face by saying you are letting her do it as she is being so good and is reformed character or anything else she has done well. etc etc.

Also you have said you allow her to get into debt on her pocket money, maybe you should have a rethink on this. She could feel like she never has any money as she is always owing you her pocket money and taking a fiver was a way out of her debt problems. (it happens to adults)
If she doesn't have enough money for the stuff she wants you could tackle it in a number of ways to suit the occasion.
a Make a gift of money at the time (appropriate if you are on a day out or she had done well at something).

b Make it a short term loan and she has to do a chore to earn the extra money she has received. ASAP
c she doesn't get the item she wants
d increase her pocket money if it doesn't cover her reasonable needs.