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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

not sure if we've gone too far with punishment?

116 replies

Humphreythehamster · 13/06/2011 20:15

DD (7) stole £5 from her teachers desk drawer at school today. She then lied and said that we had given it to her for cake stall money. When I collected her this afternoon her teacher asked me about it and I said that this wasn't true. Teacher was lovely about it and we tackled DD together and after a few more lies she finally admitted that she took the money.

DH and I have cancelled her violin lessons and brownies for the rest of the term so she won't go to either until September, she is also writing a letter of apology to her teacher now.

Is this too harsh? About right? not enough? I am so disappointed in her and upset that this has happened :(

OP posts:
leeloo1 · 13/06/2011 22:13

I think the punishment drags on for a bit and it doesn't give a dramatic shock. I think I would send her to bed very early for a week or so (as clearly a 'little' girl if she didn't understand it was wrong to take someone else's things).

Then I'd give her chores (about a couple of weeks worth at 20/50p per chore) to 'earn' money to replace what she'd taken. Any pocket money she'd usually get would go towards the fund (and I'd take the jewellery back to the shop, or say I had, so that money could go towards it too). I'd then get her to buy flowers/chocolates... whatever she decides was appropriate to give to the teacher to apologise. Then it makes it clear that people have to work hard to earn money (as the teacher does) so you can't just take what someone else has earned.

MitchiestInge · 13/06/2011 22:18

Does punishment really work? Genuine question. I have always been absolutely rubbish at that sort of thing, and would be freaked out by stealing and start imagining some serious problems driving the behaviour.

Georgimama · 13/06/2011 22:24

I'm pretty certain that not punishing a child of 7 for stealing and lying is unlikely to deter them from repeating the experiment.

altinkum · 13/06/2011 22:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MitchiestInge · 13/06/2011 22:27

You'd think the natural consequences would be deterrent enough though - the disappointment, loss of trust and so on.

Georgimama · 13/06/2011 22:29

Really? If that were true no one would steal anything, ever.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 13/06/2011 22:30

I think leeloos approach is a good one - I'm a great believer in direct consequences so that the child learns not only that it was naughty but about the actual consequences of bad behaviour.

sundew · 13/06/2011 22:37

Humphrey - I would have done something very similar if I was in your shoes. For me it is the lying that I can't stand but I would also be mortified if either of my dds stole anything.

For both of my dds early nights or tellings off do very little - they need consequences.

I do hope this works for your dd.

KangarooCaught · 13/06/2011 22:41

You know your daughter well and devised a suitable punishment especially given you were caught on the hop, like we all would have been in those circumstances. Being caught by the teacher, a figure of authority and someone she is presumably keen to please, will do her the world of good. Would just administer the punishment you've chosen, have your say and that's it. No need to keep harking back to it, give her chance to quietly redeem herself.

Bohica · 13/06/2011 22:42

My DD is 7 & also a middle child. She stole 50p from a child on the way back from a coach trip & by the time they got back everyone was still very confussed (DD denied taking it)

I asked for her bag - que lot's of back tracking by DD - & there was the 50p. I asked her to apologise to the teacher, who handled it all very well & then frog marched her back to the car. I told her stealing wasn't acceptable & took her gift shop gifts away, I also sent her straight to bed (5.30pm) I made her eat dinner in her room & in her pj's & told her to write sorry notes to the little girl & the teacher.

My daughter sounds a lot like yours OP & I find her easier to manage with a right there & then punishment.

Tonight she has lost cheerleading class for this wednesday, if I cancelled the next 6 weeks I think she would forget & be hard to manage every wednesday for the next 10 weeks.

Every penny she finds now is given to me no matter how small.

I would stick to what you hava said but revoke the violin lessons as that is learning something, I always try to do here & now punishments.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 13/06/2011 22:53

Perhaps instead of revoking part of the punishment (which would send an inconsistent message to Humphrey's dd), she could be allowed to earn back some weeks of either violin lessons or brownies by doing chores round the house and behaving really well at home and at school.

LDNmummy · 13/06/2011 23:52

You were not harsh at all! Stealing from a teachers personal property and then lying to said teacher and parents? Not harsh at all!

As others have said, nip it in the bud.

peanutbutterkid · 14/06/2011 03:59

I like what SDTG said, it would be nice if she had to make amends, in a ways that makes it clear that of course forgiveness is on the cards. Amends to both to you & to her teacher.

Morloth · 14/06/2011 04:26

Sounds about right to me.

I would probably do something similar with tennis and swimming if DS1 stole something.

He loves both and it would sting like hell to miss out on them. Good, you can't have them thinking stealing is OK.

izzywhizzyletsgetbusy · 14/06/2011 04:31

To me, the notion of 'punishing' a child who is under the age of criminal responsibility seems to belong more to Dickensian times than the 21st century.

Of course there should be consquences when children misbehave, but your little girl is still engaging in magical thinking and does not have an adult's concept of time.

Your dc is the middle child of 3 which is well-documented as not always being an easy position to occupy in the sibling hierarchy, and you have commented on the fact that, unlike her sisters, she needs 'firm treatment'. I'm well aware that parenting is a delicate balance, but I hope that your dd won't grow up to believe that she was treated differently to her siblings.

You have described her as 'not brilliant socially', and it therefore seems curious that you have chosen to cancel her Brownies and violin lessons as learning a musical instrument can improve a child's co-ordination and confidence, and the emphasis placed on team spirit in groups such as Brownies can only serve to develop her social skills.

You've also chosen to cancel these activities for what will seem to her like a very long time - certainly long enough for a bright little spark to convince herself that she doesn't care for Brownies and she's not interested in the violin, and I hope she doesn't find it difficult to re-engage once she resumes these pursuits.

The fact that there has been some other incident(s) involving telling untruths/tales to get other children into trouble may be an indication that there are underlying issues, possibly based around her need for (additional?) attention, that you should try to explore with her.

Do you spend much one-to-one time with her? Have you asked her why she wanted an 'eyeball'? What did she expect to gain from having this toy? Did she believe that it would make her feel special, or that if she showed it to other children they would admire her, or did she intend to give it to a child that she hopes may become her special friend?

If she had been able to buy the toy without your knowledge, how was she going to it explain to you? Or was she planning to hide it somewhere in/outside your home?

What compelled her to take money from her teacher's desk? Did she think about it before the committed the act (planned), or did it suddenly seem like a good idea (impulse)? As she was taking the money, did she feel that it was a wrong thing to do and was she scared that the teacher might suddenly come into the room and see what she was doing?

These might read as rapid-fire questions but I'm not proposing that you hold an inquisition, and the above gives opportunity to discuss how she would feel if it was her money that had been taken and to explore the wider moral concepts of right and wrong including not compounding a felony by failing to admit guilt.

Telling a child that you are disappointed in them can make some feel that that they can never regain your approval/trust, and a downward spiral can occur. I prefer to say that any misbehaviour isn't worthy of them, and that I know they can do better rather than have a child feel that they're not 'good enough' in any way.

For the record, if this were my 7 year old, the letter of apology would be de rigeur as would confiscation of pocket money to buy a suitable gift for the teacher. If a special outing/party/treat was on the immediate horizon they may not get to go unless I believed that they were genuinely sorry and contrite. Other than that, I'd give them lots of cuddles and resolve to introduce assorted moral topics/dilemmas in my general conversations with them.

I would take great pains to keep this matter under wraps - i.e. not talking about in front of other dcs, or to other family members/friends unless I could be absolutely certain that there would be no breach of confidence.

I'd also be looking at myself/recent family events etc to see whether something seemingly unrelated had led to my child stealing, as some children steal to compensate themselves for a real or perceived lack.

Morloth · 14/06/2011 04:39

Possible you are overthinking things there izzy.

Basically, you nick things, you get in shit - welcome to the real world.

7 is plenty old enough to understand this, well mine is anyway.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl · 14/06/2011 08:36

Izzy - I think that a 7-year-old who steals money from her teacher's desk does require a fairly stinging consequence, and presumeably the OP looked at the options available for such a consequence and picked the ones that seemed best to her. However, the points you raise are good ones, that the OP might want to consider, in order to find out why her dd did this, and to deal with any underlying issues.

But I don't think a good reason obviates the need for a stinging consequence - if you are uncomfortable with the idea of punishment, maybe you'd be happier with the concept of discipline - from the greek word for teacher. It's our responsibility as parents to teach our children right from wrong, and part of that is teaching them that the bad behaviour has negative consequences - I see nothing Dickensian about that. I would feel worse about raising my children to think that seriously bad behaviour like theft didn't have serious consequences for them.

But as I say, I think that both the OP and you make good points. It's important to stop bad behaviour in its tracks with firm consequences, and then to find out what led to the behaviour and what can be done to prevent its happening again.

post · 14/06/2011 09:49

I don't think it's particularly harsh, but also once you've told her I think it's REALLY important not to go back on it.

fairydoll · 14/06/2011 11:25

won't you have to explain to brownies and the violin teacher why she is missing them? i think this is wrong and humiliating to your daughter to have outsiders dragged into it.

kreecherlivesupstairs · 14/06/2011 11:32

Possibly, it is the only way to stop future thievery taking place. My DD would be mortified if other people knew that she had stolen. However, it would be the only way to reinforce how she'd been naughty (wrong word but can't think of a better one).
Our DD doesn't give a toss about what me and DH think of her, she does however idolise her teachers and even the threat of telling them would be enough.

Ephiny · 14/06/2011 11:38

I think it's OK and not too harsh - stealing is a serious thing, and will only become more so as she gets older. You would be doing her no favours in the long run by being soft on this. When she's older she won't be able to get out of the consequences by saying sorry and having a nice little talk with about her feelings.

I agree she's very young - but if she's old enough to be stealing money and then concocting a story to cover her tracks, she's probably mature enough to understand the punishment and why it's happening.

Hullygully · 14/06/2011 11:43

wot leeloo said

BootyMum · 14/06/2011 11:49

Izzywhizzy I think yours is a brilliant post.

I had written a long reply but lost it so will attempt to summarise.

Basically I wish there had been such a thoughtful and calm adult around when I was caught stealing [see my above post] who had tried to see the situation from my point of view.

I find it quite sad that a few posters seem to find the behaviour of a 7 year old so distasteful and are advocating harsher and harsher punishment.

I personally feel this is detrimental to the child's self esteem and misses the point somewhat. I believe this is a vital life lesson and as parents what we are trying to do is guide and shape the child's inner moral compass. So a child might be punished for their wrongdoing but still not really fully understand their crime or how to avoid it in the future - using their own internal compass of right and wrong.

As a few posters have admitted they themselves stole as children and as izzywhizzy said children think in "magical" ways, ie do not fully understand the consequences of their actions, things just happen, therefore the impulse to steal can be overpowering. We cannot expect them to think and reason as adults do.

I do however feel that some sanction and recompense is required to underline the importance of the lesson but it must be reasonable and fitting to the action so writing a letter of apology to the teacher and the withdrawal of a treat is probably about right. But as long as it is done in the spirit of love and concern [ie teaching a vital lesson], not a desire for retribution or punishment against a young child.

Also I feel that parents need to ensure they are not acting as a result of their own guilt and shame and a need to be seen to be punishing their child.
OP I understand that you were upset that your child stole from her teacher [and the teacher obviously also saw this and felt the need to comfort you]. However if you can get past your own shock and distress and focus on your daughter and her needs this would be most beneficial.
As another poster said, sometimes this sort of "extreme" behaviour can be a need to kick out against a sense of feeling powerless in your world. I think it was in my case.

Lastly, I just wanted to say I think it is highly unlikely your daughter is a bad egg or you are a bad parent. Stealing is not that uncommon in young children [your daughter's teacher will have dealt with this before] and can be turned around. But I do feel some thought needs to be put into why she is behaving like this rather than automatically moving onto punishment.

ajandjjmum · 14/06/2011 11:51

I think you're spot on OP. It must be horrible for you having to cope with this, but glad that the teacher is so thoughtful of you.

None of our kids are perfect - we just have to try and encourage them to get a little closer to it!

Humphreythehamster · 14/06/2011 11:52

Izzy, I appreciate what you are saying and believe me we have tried to find out if there are any underlying issues but she insists there are none. I've even asked DD1 to offer her an ear but again nothing.

One to one time? We do try to give all the DC individual attention but with 4 of them, one being a toddler it can be tricky. We do our best to make all of them happy and regardless of the behaviour we always reiterate how much we love them, even if we aren't loving what they've done. If you read my earlier post you'll see why we are so scrupulous about it.

OP posts:
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