To have had (another) little cry about my dd's lack of friends

[emkana]

She's very serious and very keen on doing well at school, and just doesn't fit in with the girls in her class. Its been really hard for her for the past year. Shes coming up to the end of year five. I don't know what to advise her other than to tough it out until she gets to secondary - not that it will necessarily get easier then.

Planet have seen that too....11 year olds going to the cinema with their BOYFRIENDS ffs and their parents going "oh it's so sweet."

Er..no....it isn't! It's forcing them to grow uo too fast!

Emkana...does dd go to brownies? Or would it be guides?

i havent read all the other responses but i think that speaking to the school will help. could she move class? who will she be in with next year- are there other girls in the other classes that would be a good match with her? if there are 3 classes there is surely some more scope?

Don't want to sound like a hypocrite, but my DD does have a "boyfriend" - more a friend really, and their friendship was born out of the fact that he is an outcast among the boys like she is among the girls. Don't know why, he's a lovely boy - maybe that's the problem lol!

But she certainly doesn't have him as a trophy, or because she's particularly interested in boys - and I'd be horrified if she ever boasted about "dumping" him!

I really like that idea, Worra... 'stop here to play'. Inspired concept, I wonder how many other schools have incorporated it?

I don't think your daughter should change her personality to try to fit in with these girls.

I found the last couple of years of primary a special kind of hell, I wasn't actively bullied, it was just clear I didn't fit in. No one hated me, I just wasn't part of any particular group. American sororities have nothing on the rigid social code of small children's friendship groups.

I think as adults we can forget just how pettily ridiculous children can be about differences with others, in ways we can't even imagine - I was excluded from one group because I hadn't gone to their infants school so they couldn't be friends with me - I meant WTF? If I had had the words WTF in my vocabulary then I would have used them.

There's not much you can do sadly other than encourage friendships outside school and activities that will lead to meeting more likeminded people, boys and girls, older and younger. If she's musical stagecoach or a local amdram group may also be a good option - in fact I belonged to a local amdram group that was happy to have kids helping as well rather than the local stagecoach type thing (stagecoach didn't exist then) as that was full of the Queen Bee type.

No they don't mix up the classes.

Have had a chat with the learning mentor - she was really surprised, I think because dd always seems so together, hiding it well.

She will have a chat with dd and also with the teacher. We will have to see what good it does.

DH didnt have any friends at school because he was studious and it being quite a tough-ish state school that made him an outcast. He is a very strong person though and it genuinely didnt bother him He worked hard got to Cambridge and was immediately among people like him and made tons of friends who are still his friends. Also he is now incredibly successful in an interesting job and his ex school fellows well, aren't.

Emkana
I hope the learning mentor is helpful.

What you have described is, as I said, all too familiar to me. DD was described as 'a loner' by the deputy head when I tried to get some intervention. Nothing could have been further from the truth as we knew her to be very gregarious everywhere but inside that school.

As I said, it did pass. She's a confident, happy young woman soon to be 19 and loving being at University in London.

Music helped a great deal, especially when she reached a level where she left the 'bane of her life' far, far behind. Most of her friends are musical.

She also made a great many friends who are boys, largely because of her bent for Maths and Science. This was also helpful as she had no contact thereby with the 'prom queens'. She made an extensive network of friends who shared the same interests.

Studious though she is, she can put on the glitz and be a girly girl when she wants to. (She was last heard from this afternoon celebrating end of first year exams in Hyde Park with friends and Pimms, and heading for a club tonight.)

If there is nothing else to do, just make sure your DD knows that SHE is not at fault. (I'm sure you're already doing that.)

Just one thing.......being studious and wearing glasses (if your does) is a bit of a downer. Contact lenses made a hell of a difference for my DD.

It's all very well saying the OPs DD shouldn't change her personality Georgimama, but the DD and the mum are in tears about it, so it's sounds a pretty big problem to them.

But like with the DD playing with the reception children, she's setting herself apart from the other DC, and you seem to be encouraging her to do it OP.

I see my role in this respect to sympathise with my DD that it's hard, but to give her the tools to try and get along with other children, just like you have to when you're an adult.

10 YOs can be difficult, and my DD has had a 'boyfriend' as well, it was totally innocent and just them starting to get a grip on the adult world.

Like it or not they are starting to grow up and want to do stuff, I don't mean in an inappropriate way, but in a similar way to wanting to feel like mummy when they wobble about in high heels/lippy on at 4/5 YO.

I'm not totally unsympathetic to those not wanting their children to do anything at all to fit in with their peers, but if it's causing such upset, then surely a rethink on the way you're handling it at the moment is needed?

What would you actually suggest then? It doesn't sound like the OP's daughter is incapable of interacting with these children at all, they just don't want to be friends with her.

It's possible we're just coming at the OPs posts from a different angle georgi, because I see it as the OPs daughter not wanting to be friends with them.

Because all this relationship/interaction with other people shit is a learning process, you have to be given the tools to cope with, and adapt to, the very quick changing situation going on around them.

One day they're mates, the next bitter enemies, then they make up again etc etc. I try to teach DD to take a step back and be a bit more detached about it all, to protect herself from the negatives and exploit and remember the positives in her day.

I'm sympathetic to DD because I know how horrible it is to be stuck there, but I don't believe her version of events is 100% what went on and I also try not to get bogged down in the he said/she said crap.

It's a fucking minefield is the brass tacks of it

Well I agree with all of that, I just wondered why you took issue with my saying the OP's daughter shouldn't try to change her personality to fit in. She needs tools to cope with the way things are, but the last thing I think she should do is change herself.

I found out today that a child at pre-school had called DS "useless" and whilst maintaining external serenity ("oh that's not a very nice thing for him to say, and not true. No one is useless darling especially not you") I felt the red mist descend. It is as you say, a fucking minefield and I've only just started.

From personal experience I would suggest one of 2 things

1. Not sure if you mentioned but could she change class? If she doesn't make friends there she hasn't lost anything

2. Does she like reading? I used to get through playtimes by reading as I loved it. Gave me time to sit and concentrate.
   Then concentrate on her out of school friendships so she still gets her 'play' time

I think it's the 'change her personality' definition that's probably the difference?

I tried to change my DDs personality from passive/'hey, walk all over me and I won't say a word', to assertive, without detouring through aggression.

I don't want her to be popular and friends with DC who think getting a tan/nails done is great, but I want her to fit in with the other children and find a common ground, at least some days.

I know what you mean about the red mist but the OPs DD isn't powerless to change her own situation and the OP should be trying to help enable her.

She sounds like a lovely girl. I hope she's going to a good secondary school where she'll be appreciated.

If I were you I'd ask if she could be moved into another class. I know it's a risk because if it didn't work out there, it could be worse, but surely the teachers know whether there's a similar girl in one of the other groups who could benefit from her company?

If you are prepared to move her, is there another local school that's suitable?

I'm sorry but I really don't see what you suggest I should do. These girls physically run away from her in the playground. Should she practise her running to keep up with them - in particular with a girl who was her best friend but then didn't want to know dd anymore? That's the one group. The next group keeps discussing secrets that they don't want dd to be part of. What should she do there? Next group discusses boys - should I tell dd to feign an interest? Next group are the girls who think it's cool and desirable who put as little effort as possible into schooling - while dd is very studious.
Thats all the girls there are in her class.

I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm open to any avenue that will help dd, but I really don't understand how she could make it work?

The class she would like to move into already has thirty children in it, so they probably wouldn't allow it.

There is a local school which would be okay, and where she knows girls, but dd is reluctant to leave behind the violin teacher who she loves, and the orchestra, and all the other aspects of school life.

Well you can be sympathetic to your DD while telling her she shouldn't have to do anything to try and fit in, or you can tell her how she can go about trying to adapt her behaviour to make connections and relationships with the others.

I've suggested a few things in my posts you could try, but if your dead set on the idea your DD shouldn't take some control and responsibility over her own life, they're not going to get far.

Yes, perhaps she should talk about boys, they're not an alien species and it might be an opener onto other interests she might feel more comfortable talking about. I refuse to believe that's all they talk about.

I feel quite strongly about your thread because I wish somebody had told me what it was I had to do to make those connections, the nuts and bolts not just 'oh, that's not nice try and get along now', it sounds so isolating for your DD

No-one's suggesting your DD should change the way she is to fit in with other children, but perhaps teaching her a bit about accepting differences might help?

For example, the girls who talk about boys all the time can't literally do that all the time therefore she could learn to be more interested in the other things they discuss...or learn to get other discussions going.

Equally, the 'naughty' girls...well learning to accept that some children do have behaviour problems and encouraging them when they're not having a naughty moment can also be a great thing to learn.

As for a child being a 'Queen Bee' well I'm not really sure what that means. If she has 'followers' that tells me she's a very popular little girl...therefore I'm not sure why your DD isn't happy with this?

I try to teach my children to be well rounded and understanding of the differences in people and how diverse schools can be when it comes to children. For every trait they don't like in someone, they can often find one they do like if they look hard enough.

Other than teaching about acceptance I can't really think what else to suggest?

My DS has been through similar and we discussed it as a choice. He could choose between doing something he didn't really want to do (in his case, playing games he wasn't much interested in) but having the company, or choosing not to and potentially having to amuse himself. He got that, and sometimes chose to be alone, sometimes joined in. He felt more in control when he viewed it as a choice I think.

It was a phase apparently, as he now rarely spends time alone. Either that or his own tastes and/or those of his classmates have altered. However, I'm not sure he has a 'best friend' as such. I think the social isolation and the lack of a best friend are not necessarily the same issue.

I think they should stretch to 31 children in the class if a) it makes the difference between a sad child and a happy one and b) if that child adds to the value of the class, which surely she would.

I would put a very, very strong case to the school for them doing this. It's possible for them to do it, so force it.

I have a daughter who was very similar, always saying she had no friends - they all ran away from her etc. While some of it is true (ie she has very few party invitations despite inviting 10 girls to her party each year) she does have people who will play with her. It really is just her perception that no one likes her - they do like her but not as a best friend. This and other problems regarding her weight meant that she had a referral to the CAMHS service. She had some counselling and this helped.

Several other things have helped, she has always had a mature outlook and probably didn't fit in with the other kids (although adults would always tell me what a wonderful conversationalist she was). As she has progressed though Year 6 her friends have also matured and she now has much more in common with them. She also joined the St John Ambulance Cadets and she has made several good friends there.

All the best - there is hope.

You've probably heard the old saying "only an idiot does the same thing and expects a different outcome". Your DD is clearly unhappy with the current situation; she has two choices: carry on in the same way and suck it up, or do something different. As Basingstoke says, she has a choice. She has a limited number of potential friends to choose from - she either seeks friends from that group, or she does not.

There is a huge difference between changing who you are and adapting your behaviour. Let's be really honest here: all of us tailor our behaviour to whatever is appropriate in the circumstances. Would you have the same conversation in church that you had on a drunken girls night out? Of course not! That doesn't mean that you're being shallow or fakey. We all choose which aspects of our personality to display at any one time - it's a completely normal, and indeed desirable, response.

I am slightly concerned that by regularly telling your DD to be herself, you might be inadvertantly forcing her to adopt a very fixed sense of self and identity at what is really a very young age. She has still got a huge amount of growing, developing, maturing and changing to do. "Herself" is a bit of a movable feast at this stage, she is going to change sooo much over the coming months and years. I think it could be constricting for her to have a strongly emphasised concept of "this is who I am" at her age. Obviously she will have certain fixed traits and themes that she will retain throughout her life, but identity and personality are incredibly complex things and they shift and change all the time. IMVHO many adults don't know precisely who they are. IMO, telling a 10yo to be "herself" is not necessarily helpful. I would suggest encouraging flexibility and trying new things out.

In practical terms, it sounds as though the girls who talk about boys are the most accepting of your DD. This would IMO be a good place for her to start. But she will have to accept that the biggest part of having friends is being a friend, and she will therefore have to go along with the "boy talk" if she wants to be in that group. Back to choices...

Emkana

Go and have a look at the other school.

There may be an orchestra there. Her current violin teacher might well teach her privately. That's exactly what we did when we moved DD for Y6 and she got a full half hour of individual attention as a result and she's probably going to have to change violin teacher when she goes to secondary school anyway.

It's only for one year but it is such an important year. WE weren't expecting an academic gain but the difference in the quality of teaching was an added bonus - she was stretched for the first time in her life and she revelled in it.

The social gain was worth rubies.

We made a list once she had seen the new school - reasons for staying or going. There was nothing on the staying list.

I rationalised it thus:-
Everychild deserves to be happy in school.
She should have at least one happy year in primary school and that's not going to happen where she is.
She should find out what school OUGHT to be like.

My only regret is that we didn't do it sooner.

Of course, the current school might realise that one of their best SAT results is about to walk out the door and take the matter seriously. I suddenly found the school my DD was leaving was very willing to listen to our concerns when I announced she was going! Went anyway - it was too late.

Also, when we visited the new school we saw an astonishing number of children who had mysteriously left the old school over the years. DD wasn't the only bright child who had been miserable there.