to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

"Many 'prolifers' are only pro the foetuses life as far as I can see"

No, we just consider the foetus a life as well as the mother. For us it is weighing up one life against another. One living thing's right to life over another and IMO a life trumps a choice.

@strawberry & queenmary. I am very sorry to hear about your respective situations. Absolutely no-one on here has said that they are all for forcing abortions, not even in children, so don't put words into other peoples mouths kthanx.

@bubbleymummy - actually I'm not in favour of late-term abortions, as someone said earlier I don't think that many people are, and my personal feeling is that the current cut-off is a bit on the late side. The fact that an embryo carries a complete and unique set of DNA does carry some weight but it still doesn't make it a feeling, thinking, kicking responsive foetus though, it simply hasn't reached that stage yet. As an analogy it's a tadpole not a frog, a human embryo not a human being. I also think (and always have done, and said) that even very early-term abortion is a serious decision that should only be made after a lot of thought and with a bloody good reason.

What I object to is people like queenmary who prefer to discuss late-term abortions and conflate them with early-term abortions, who call a zygote and embryo a "baby". When you start to mislead women by showing a very late-term abortion video and implying that this is what all abortions are, and when you start to say that an embryo is the same thing as a foetus I think that's wrong, because you are then backdating the highly emotive "silent scream" image to the moment of conception in order to emotionally blackmail women into accepting your pov on abortion at every stage.

At this stage I would also like to object to queenmary's assertion that anyone who does not accept her extreme opinions is a nasty, hysterical and irrational person who has called her names. Neither I nor many others who disagree with her have been any of these things.

She said she was.

"QM did point out that she had to clean her kitchen so I think she's probably just had to get back to her real life commitments instead of going round in circles with you lot."

Yes, she has so many real life commitments she spent most of yesterday, today and last night posting. Who knew midwifery was so flexible!

"feeling, thinking, kicking responsive foetus though, it simply hasn't reached that stage yet"

You ca feel kicks from about 16 weeks iirc - and they're obviously moving around even before that. Aren't there scans showing them responding to music etc? Difficult to prove that they are thinking but I'm pretty sure they are feeling too.

For those still referring to 'bunch of cells' and 'embryo' - does this mean you only support abortion prior to 8 weeks?

ACtually flippin - midwives do have unusual shifts so I don't think it's totally unfeasible or she could be on holiday....

Page 32 16.36 differentnameforthis
"I believe in God & Jesus & all that entails. I am a Christian."

It's interesting how queenmaryleaves the thread and one her pro-life friends pops up almost straight away to continue where she left off, isn't it?

That was for flippinada

I can assure you I am not QM. I don't have the time or the patience! :)

I know what midwives do bubbley - a close family member has been one for a number of years. It's a very demanding job.

You're right of course; she could well be on holiday, even so it's impressive she manages to post so much with 6 children to look after, isn't it?

"I believe in God & Jesus & all that entails. I am a Christian."

I stand corrected then - not that it actually makes much difference.

I didn't say you were. I just think it's odd that she leaves and another pro-lifer pops up more or less straight away.

People will draw their own conclusions, anyway.

QM reminds me of those people that protest against homosexuals and funerals of soldiers in America.

What do the pro-lifers think of this?

Seeing as (in your opinion) abortion is murder, do you think women should be charged for it? And if you award the same rights to an unborn foetus as a child which has been born, do you believe that not taking care of the unborn foetus should be treated as negligence?

@bubbleymummy - wow, an embryo dances and feels? A nervous system spontaneously develops at the moment of conception? Can you link me up to the study that shows that please, I'm really interested to see it.

Queenmary you are deliberately evasive in your responses and very selective as to which questions you will answer. When pushed on your views on the less cuddly aspects of pro-life thinking you use the tactic of denying you agree with those views whilst refusing to clarify what your opinions are. I, personally, think that even you are struggling to make sense of what you believe. If you believe passionately in something you would answer all questions with conviction. And please don't say that you haven't got the time as you have been on here pretty much constantly for days finding time to say the same ambiguous things over and over again.
And as for you saying 'that is up to the law makers' when pushed on what you think should be done to ensure women don't obtain an abortion outside of the law - what a cop out. The law makers have made their minds up - it is you who thinks that the law is wrong yet you, apparently, have no better alternative yourself! Or could it be that you'd just rather not talk about the sanctions you'd like to see doled out to rape victims and other women so distressed they would attempt to perform an abortion on themselves cos, lets face it, that's not going to be quite as popular as you just saying 'it's wrong to kill' again and again and again.

And flippinada I had noticed how the pro-foetus people on here seem to enjoy congratulating each other so much and may I compliment you on how observant you are. I'm so glad there are people like you on here and I think that we both deserve a jolly good pat on the back

Crapola - I fail to see the similarities at all- would you like to expand?

"an embryo dances and feels? A nervous system spontaneously develops at the moment of conception?" I believe you are one of the posters who keeps referring to embryos - does this mean you are only pro-choice up to 8 weeks?

Hey bubbley one of my terminations was at 11 weeks, damn NHS....am I a murderer? Or should I have had a baby at nineteen which I could not afford and did not want?

And the similarities are emotive language, propaganda touted as fact, preying on the most vulnerable with the most awful nonsense.

Bubbley....answer please about the dancing embryo.

honeyandsalt - in the same vain I'd also like to know how the baby, in the famous pro-life propaganda of the late abortion baby 'reaching out' to the doctor performing the abortion, managed to do that considering that no baby I've ever known has had the motor skills to reach out for anything until months after a full-term birth.
Fair enough if you think life begins at conception but please don't tell lies.

Crapola - I was talking about a foetus not an embryo in that particular post. I thought that is quite obvious seeing as I was talking about being able to actually feel movement - have none of you been pregnant? Babies are only referred to as embryos up to 8 weeks - did you not know that?

Crapola - I believe you killed your baby, yes. The foetus had a face and genitals and organs and could in no way have been described as a 'bundle of cells'. I know people younger than you who had unexpected pregnancies and did have their babies and are good mothers to them - are you suggesting that being 19 with no money means someone is completely incapable of being a mother?