to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

queenmarythegreat
You have the patience of a saint.
I have been following this thread and you have answered and re-answered the questions of people who, quite clearly, have only a fraction of your warmth and humanity, not to mention intelligence.
It is like watching a load of daft children trying, in their own inarticulate way, to make feeble excuses for something which they know in their heart of hearts (if they have a heart!!) is wrong.
Seriously, they should hang their heads in shame, the lot of them.

MsTeak Stop twisting my words. I said in this case they had not used protection. I thought I made that clear enough to understand.

And the woman can bloody walk away. What about all the men left with children after the Mother's have decided to walk away after they were born.
And before you try and say that doesn't happen, I should know, my Mother left me when I was a baby.

And in the situation I am talking about the woman should have taken reasonable steps to prevent said pregnancy before being allowed to abort.

'warmth and humanity' the poster who said that she would consider forcing her child (as in 9yo, for example) to continue with pregnancy caused by rape?

There are some really odd people out there.

Different I don't think anyone is listening to me when I say had they not used contraception.

I'm not talking about the people who's contraception has failed, I am talking about the ones who took no steps to prevent them getting pregnant and risked it.

not really sure what your argument is there and not sure that is the case i thought it was more about making her aware. however that is not forcing him to have a vasectomy is it, its not forcing him to do something he does not want to do

and really men being psychologically scared from their partner or ex partner having a termination i am sure there are a few (no doubt there will now be lots of links of men that are)

I think the people who should hang their heads in shame are people who would give birth to a baby so severely disabled that it would live suffering for a matter of hours then die, the people who would consider forcing pregnancy on a child and the people who equate the loss of an embryo a few weeks old with the loss of a baby or older child. And all the while pretending it is in the best interest of the mother/baby when it is ENTIRELY to preserve their own principles.

Freudian It's forcing him to not be allowed to do something he wants to do to his body which is equally as bad.

gruffalo I was raped when I was 12 and I fell pregnant and I was forced to have an abortion. Is that not as bad? I didn't want to because I realised I was carrying a life, regardless of circumstances.

I am seriously fucked up because of that!

So it's ok to terminate when you used contraception but not if you haven't? Umm, so is it murder or not? Is an embryo/foetus a human being or not?

I find it odd, all this conditions, oh, well, if you've been raped, that's ok, or if your contraception failed, but if, God forbid, you forgot to use any, than you musn't kill the tiny baaaby inside you.

Differennamefor this-so does your friend wish the child dead now? No? thought not

Winny If you look at one of my previous posts you will see I don't agree with it regardless of contraception, rape or not. Just that you would have a hard time fighting these cases to be outlawed.

Oh and I was 13 weeks before I have to have that medical abortion and when I passed the fetus it didn't just look like a tiny clump of fucking cells.

i agree that stopping a man having a vasectomy is wrong, but it is not the same as forcing him to have one. he can choose not the have sex or use a condom. forcing him a choice is taken away

and its also physically forcing him to do something. not really sure how this compares with forcing a women to stay pregnant because her partner or ex partner wants her too

Ah, indeed. But it wouldn't be rather hard to prove that the couple didn't use the contraception in order to deny the woman termination? Therefore it would be rather hard to outlaw terminations on the basis of whether contraception has been used.

strawberry, the whole point is CHOICE, nobody should have forced you to have a termination just like nobody should have forced you to keep it.

"and its also physically forcing him to do something. not really sure how this compares with forcing a women to stay pregnant because her partner or ex partner wants her too"

So a pregnancy and subsequent birth aren't physical?

well yes of course they are

ok forcing a man to have a vasectomy becaseu his parnter demands it is wrong because it takes away his control over his body is that ok

like forcing a women to carry on with a pregnancy she does not want to do but her partner/ex partner is demanding it is wrong and so is beign able to force her to have a termination

Winny It might be but I only mentioned the situation as a matter of interest and wondering what people would think of it.

Freudian But what if the condom fails? As has been pointed out on here many times contraception fails. And if he was to abstain from sex would that not be wrong as well?

And it wasn't me who brought the vasectomy argument up, I'm just trying to prove a point. No one ever gives a hell about the mans mentality or feelings towards it.

Elephant But I was forced to. It's possible to force a child to have a termination which I think is just as bad as forcing them to keep it.

Maybe not at 9yo old. That could kill the child.

honeyandsalt said "Just out of interest - @queenmary - what if it's an early stage pregancy, and continuing will kill the mother?"

Here,

queenmarythegreat Mon 13-Jun-11 15:16:07 = if the mothers life being in danger was a genuine argument then why does the baby have to be killed before it is born? Why can't it just be born early and take it's chances?

So, let the woman have the baby, but induce her at 23 weeks or there abouts (as suggested already by QM, presumably choosing this cut off as some babies survive being born at this age ) & just see what happens to the baby.

"take it's chances" so you know, it may survive, it may not. But letting it die like that, while it's mother is fighting for her own life (remember we are talking about the pregnancy killing the mother here) & may die too, is better than letting the woman decide to terminate a pregnancy. Because after all, what does the woman know? QM is a far better person to judge what's best, because she is a midwife. (sorry, but I find this VERY debatable)

But yet, her plans involve playing with the life of not one, but TWO HUMAN beings, but she objects so vehemently against termination.

She hates the thoughts of her tax going towards terminations, but would absolutely support it going towards playing with 2 lives, just to see what happens when we force a woman to carry a baby she knows she doesn't want, for whatever reason. The potential outcome of this little experiment being the death of a woman (who may already have children) and a baby.

But that isn't as bad as termination.

Double standards? I think so.

fairydoll

No, but she treats her like crap & regrets having her.

But that isn't the point, is it.

when you have sex you are taking a chance that the women might fall pregnant even if you are using contraception. if she does fall pregnant it has to be her choice, if we are going to let men decide whether or not we can have a termination how far back is that setting us and if they can control when we do not why not let them be able to force us to

and again i do not agree that a man should be forced or stopped from having a vasectomy, but of course a partner should be made aware

"And in the situation I am talking about the woman should have taken reasonable steps to prevent said pregnancy before being allowed to abort."

why do so many people on this thread find it so impossible to realise that contraception OFTEN FAILS.

and in any case, if you're only going to allow terminations to women who can prove that they did use contraception, how on earth do you propose to prove it?? mad. totally mad.

" gruffalo I was raped when I was 12 and I fell pregnant and I was forced to have an abortion. Is that not as bad? I didn't want to because I realised I was carrying a life, regardless of circumstances.

I am seriously fucked up because of that! "

Oh my goodness strawberrymewmew
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
You were a little girl, it's so unfair.

How sad that people are continuing to insist that making a decision to perform an abortion on a young girl in your situation is the only compassionate one.
Frankly, I'm not seeing a lot of compassion in evidence here.
I'm seeing spewing, frothing anger. And I am seeing real stories like yours being hijacked and used as vehicles to justify abortion without question, for anyone, whatever the reason.

" ^queenmarythegreat
You have the patience of a saint.
I have been following this thread and you have answered and re-answered the questions of people who, quite clearly, have only a fraction of your warmth and humanity, not to mention intelligence.
It is like watching a load of daft children trying, in their own inarticulate way, to make feeble excuses for something which they know in their heart of hearts (if they have a heart!!) is wrong.
Seriously, they should hang their heads in shame, the lot of them^ "

Phew
Thank you.
I was beginning to wonder if i'd entered a parallel universe where the normal rules of logical discourse are turned upside down.