to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

The point is, that sometimes it's kinder to terminate than to give birth- for all concerned.

You, queenmary, see everything in black and white, and life is not like that.

abortion may not stop the incest but it gives that girl/woman a choice and control something that has totally be taken away from her and freedom from being pregnant when she had absolutely no choice in the matter

" and this notion that some abortions are more valid than others is bullshit too "

But it is the " pro aborts choicers " who make it so.

If you all really felt that all abortions were equally valid, why so much focus on rape and incest?

I think that the arguments for abortion depend on being propped up by these reasons.

i would like to think that any doctor carrying out an abortion on a child would follow child protection procedures and inform the appropriate authorities that a child had been raped. i would aslo liek to think that SS would act pretty sharpish in order to put steps in place to prevent the child being placed back at risk.

If you start looking at the arguement from a deserving vs undeserving point of view it quickly becomes unpalatable. Who is qualified to make that judgement? Which is why you need access for all, so that those who wish or need to access a service are able to. If you don't wish to then there is no need to.

queenmary - i didnt focus on rape or incest. as i've said in earlier posts, any reason for abortion if that decision is made independently and in an informed way is equally valid imo. fwiw abortions for rape/incest should be available immediately and jump the queue time frame wise but thats another theme.

i think this is something many posters feel they need to validate their pro choice views with and i think that fine. i dont feel that way and support a woman's right to choose whatever her reasons are.

You think?
Underage girls can be referred by the school nurse for an abortion. No parental consent required.
What makes you think the pregnant schoolgirl is going to tell a school nurse about her abuser?

"As I've tried to point out in previous posts, there is at least the possibility that a child conceived as a result of rape could be the one good thing to come out of a terrible crime. There are testimonies online to this effect."

I absolutely would not dispute this - and if a woman chooses this I would never argue with her decision. But should a rape survivor not be entitled to make that choice for herself? As opposed to society giving rapists the power to determine whom they would like to bear their children?

My comment above was to boohoo:
re:
" i would like to think that any doctor carrying out an abortion on a child would follow child protection procedures and inform the appropriate authorities that a child had been raped. i would aslo liek to think that SS would act pretty sharpish in order to put steps in place to prevent the child being placed back at risk "

" As opposed to society giving rapists the power to determine whom they would like to bear their children? "

Or
As opposed to society giving the unborn child the death penalty for the crime of it's father.

one would hope boohoo but many children who have been abused will not admit this through fear and will often protect their abusers until they feel they are no longer living in fear. and in many countries they jsut do not have the resources to deal with issues like this

my comment was in regards to qm's quite we have made the unborn slaves of our sexual freedom, not every pregnancy conceived is through consensual sex

i certainly do not go think a child born and conceived through rape can be loved any less but to force a women to carry on a pregnancy in any situation she does not want to is wrong but particularly cruel when the women or girl has been raped, its like punishing her yet again you might as well take away her freedom, well you would be doing just that freedom to have any choices over her own body

^"Or
As opposed to society giving the unborn child the death penalty for the crime of it's father."^

The problem with this is, of course, that the death penalty is only a penalty due to the fact that those who are given it are usually a) self aware b) aware of their own mortality and c) unwilling to meet an early demise. Plus, arguably, they are arguably afraid of death like most people.

As far as current research goes, none of these things can be said about an embryo or foetus.

Not the same thing at all.

yes i totally agree with you tehre freudian. i also understand that many abuse victims dont name their abusers especially if it is family.

WRT my point about the doctor informing the right people. my motehr is a midwife and when an underage girl has a baby in her hospital SS must be informed and they visit the mother. this is why i assumed doctors would be under the same obligations. i understand that victims dont always tell about abuse but at least if SS have been informed, they are then able to investigate and are aware and can monitor things. they will be far more likely to pick up on abuse if tehy are aware that an underage girl has become pregnant. therefore the abuse would be more likely to stop than if no report to SS was made.

There is hope and healing after abortion
Two women's abortion testimonies:

"...there is at least the possibility that a child conceived as a result of rape could be the one good thing to come out of a terrible crime."

'Good' as perceived by you, NationalTruss; but not necessarily as perceived by the rape victim who will have to carry the child to term, give birth to it and either give it away (and deal with that for the rest of her life), or be responsible for the child for the rest of its life.

But, you know, as long as you, i.e someone totally irrelevant and uninvolved in the situation can see it as a good thing, then that's all that matters.

NationalTruss - do you have the right to tell me what to do with my own body? Or should you?

All the testimonials in the world of women who've been through abortion and regretted it, or who didn't have an abortion for whatever reason, does not alter the fact that for some women abortion is the right and only option.

Scarlettsmummy - you're showing a spectacular lack of empathy if you think giving up a 70K a year career is in any way comparable with what many women facing an unwanted pregnancy have to deal with.

Unbelievable...

Okay, I realise I am wading into the debate very late here, but, I have some very strong opinions on this subject. I had an abortion. When I was 17. DP (for I still have the same DP now) and I were using long term contraception - we were pro-actively trying to prevent me from getting pregnant. Yet I did, and after 3 weeks of agonising, I had an abortion. It was the most difficult choice we have ever made. Was it the right choice though? For us, yes. I was still in school (my final, exam year), my family made it clear that they would provide no support. DP was in Uni, studying 50+ hours a week and working in a Spar shop, when he had the time.

Fast forward quite a few years - DP and I are TTC. For quite some time now. Several miscarriages, lots of false starts, it has been agonising. But, would I ever question the choice we made back then? No. We had no money, no home, no prospects, nothing to offer a child. Now, we have qualifications, careers, stability, everything our future child deserves.

On another note, when I fell pregnant the first time (at 17), I was in the throes of a severe eating disorder. I was really ill. Last year, DP suffered a horrible injury, which left us wondering if he would ever properly function again. Thankfully, we are both well now fully healthy. Yes, I know these things can happen at any time, but I am glad that we had no children to witness those harrowing times.

Finally - after much blathering - I will say this: I am 100% pro-choice. No-one has a right to tell any woman (or human) what to do with their body. Ever. Do I respect the pro-life pov? Yes, absolutely. I just wish they would similarly allow other women to make their own choices wrt their own bodies.

So, to answer some questions - I am the woman who had an abortion and is now TTC, and struggling. The TTC is painful and a constant hardship, but I still do not regret my abortion. Is it naive of me to think people may understand this?

I am aware also, that this was quite an inarticulate post - I first read this thread this morning at work, some of the posts enraged me. I have just gotten home from work now, so a full day's worth of raging has just spewed out! I may be more coherent and articulate in the morning (I hope!).

From what I've read here the pro-lifers (anti-choice, anti-control over own body if you want some emotive language) have an excessively simplified view of abortion and have totally failed to take into account the huge amount of complexity involved.

Why does the argument keep coming back to the rape subject? Because it is a valid concern if abortion was to be banned. And as has been pointed out countless times, just because for some rape victims abortion was or would be the wrong decision does not mean it is the same for all.

So question one for the pro-lifers, do you believe all women are affected the same by rape? Because unless you do, then pointing out cases of women for whom abortion was wrong or unneccessary is irrelevant.

Then how about the welfare of the unborn child, does that matter to you? For example, if someone was on medication which would almost certainly have a negative affect on the health of a baby (or at the very least, on a medication which has had to remain untested on pregnant women), and the woman was in no condition to cease taking the medication. And now question two, if the woman then became pregnant by accident, would you say she should carry the baby to term even if it meant harming the baby?

Then there is the issue of if carrying a baby to term would be detrimental to the woman's health, do you believe that a woman should put her health at risk?

This is what pro-choice is about, it's knowing that every single woman's circumstances are different. And what is right for one woman (or baby) is not necessarily right for them all.

If you are concerned about people aborting for the wrong reasons, or aborting when they may later regret it, then here is your fourth question, why aren't you focusing on better counselling for women considering an abortion rather than stopping abortion outright?

Excellent post empusa. part o the problem is that the pro life on this thread are repeatedly failing to provide ANY alternatives. Or respond to posts that ask for an alternative other than to say 'not up to me to find an alternative' or that spell out what banning abortion will involve ....

Fantastic post Empusa.

well, queenmary appears to believe, and has stated over and over again on this thread, that if women had more 'practical support' they would not abort... despite the fact that i and many others have tried to explain repeatedly that a lack of practical support may not be an especially common reason for having an abortion.

It does spectacularly miss the point that in some cases lack of practical support isn't part of the issue at all.

Despite posting about women who have decided to abort and later regretted it, I don't feel like the pro-lifers are actually interested in helping to educate and support. Educating and supporting requiring understanding and acknowledgement of differing circumstances needing differing solutions.