to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

smallwhitecat
" People intuitively "know" a lot of things. For a long time they intuitively knew that enslaving black Africans was OK "

Thank you for this.
Actually people didn't intuitively know that slavery was ok.
They intuitively knew that it was wrong.

They justified slavery because it suited their convenience.

They couldn't imagine a world without slavery and had endless ways of legitimising it.
One of those ways was to deny the humanity of the slave. To make the slave "other".
Another was to point to the impossibility of freeing slaves.
How would the economy cope?
Where would the freed slaves go?
Would there be a crime wave?
How to compensate the farmers for the loss of their most valuable, and legally bought, asset?

But deep down, people knew intuitively that there was something very wrong with this. It troubled their consciences because they knew that slaves were indeed human, and it was wrong to wield that power over another human beings life.

The anti slavery campaigners were social pariahs.
Their words were twisted, their lives were combed over for evidence of their own wrong doing. They were ostracised in polite company.
People don't like it when their consciences are disturbed.
The claws come out.
They say things like "how dare you judge me!", because they are desperately afraid of judging themselves.

Are you seeing the parallels smallwhitecat?

Abortion is the slavery of today.

We have made the unborn slaves to our sexual freedom.

It is the most widespread human rights abuse of our age.

are there any statistics available looking at the demographics for abortion? This is a genuine question btw - can the view that it is young women with multiple partners having abortions be supported?

queenmary: I'm not sure which "pro abort" lobby you are referring to; however I am not familiar with anyone who actually makes the argument you are criticizing.

FWIW: There's a lengthy post above detailing some of my reasons for taking the stance I do. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.

inflames
" Still not answered the very reasonable question that several people have asked... How do you propose to stop abortion? In the midst of the very emotive arguments, on a very practical note what's your solution? "

Sorry.
I've been doing stuff irl too. Not answering a question doesn't mean I'm ignoring it. When scanning through lots of comments I generally just grab 5 minutes to reply to one that leaps out at me.
This didn't.

I don't have to have a solution to that.
That is the job of lawmakers.
I am saying that abortion should not be provided by law as it is now.
I certainly don't think that my tax money should be paying to kill unborn babies. That makes me very unhappy.

I don't really understand why your question is meant to be a tricky one to answer.
Murder is illegal.
That doesn't mean that murder doesn't happen.
I just don't agree with state sanctioned murder.

Just out of interest - @queenmary - what if it's an early stage pregancy, and continuing will kill the mother?

Would you rather women were forced to perform their own abortions or go to a backstreet abortionist, putting their lives at risk? Because when abortion is made illegal, that is what happens. Unless we make every woman who buys a test or finds out they're expecting be locked in a room for 38 odd weeks to ensure they don't?

queenmary: out of curiosity - would you agree that people like myself should spend the rest of their lives in prison, since abortion is (in your view) equal to murder?

What about my DH, who supported me throughout and was, after all, involved in the production?

What about my doctor?

What about the people who provided emotional support to me?

If not: why not?

" human intuition untempered by rationality is a pretty unattractive thing "
Indeed.
And that is exactly what I am seeing in many of the arguments here defending abortion.

I see a complete loss of reason.

I see an intuiive feeling that you are entitled to this.
That because the baby grows inside the mother, that the mother has absolute rights over it.

I see a strong conviction that these rights extend to demanding that a third party ( a doctor usually) must cooperate with their right to end the life of the baby by killing it on their behalf.

There is a confusion about what it means to be human, or even what it means to be alive.
Pro choicers cast around for other home spun defintions.
Like "being able to think independantly"
Or " being able to live independant of another human person".

None of these are rational ideas.

There is a collapse of rational thought.

Frequently accompanied by outpourings of vulgar language.

And that is, indeed, "a pretty unattractive thing".

queenmary I agree with you on 1 point. I also don't think abortion should be provided as it is currently enshrined in law. I think every woman should have the right to an abortion, without needing the permission of 2 doctors. I think it should be done as early as possible, and as easily as possible. The vast majority of women who have terminations don't celebrate it- relief certainly, celebration no.

I wish my taxes went on lots of things that they don't. But that's life.

The Abortion Act 1967 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom legalising abortions by registered practitioners, and regulating the free provision of such medical practices through the National Health Service.

And thank goodness it exists.

Could you rationally explain to me, please, queen mary the great, how an embryo is the same thing as a baby? Does it feel, think, even move? And answer my earlier question?

I disagree with some of the generalizations expressed. It would be wrong to assume that every termination is requested in the same circumstances. I can't imagine scores of woman walking in demanding a termination.

Not all women who are in the situation of considering a termination find it an easy decision to make, move on without a backward glance and don't judge themselves - yes maybe some do but many don't.

Similarly I would not wish to make sweeping assumptions about those who hold a differing opinion to mine.

we have made the unborn slaves to our sexual freedom

does that include the countless young girls and women that are raped by their father/brother/uncles

rape has nothing to do with sexual freedom, its about control and violence and some woman abort because they can not face having the baby that has been conceived through rape

or once again have these women just got to suffer with once again choice and control being taken away from them

State sanctioned murder is quite emotive language. But surely this happens in medicine regularly when treatment is withdrawn from patients or life support turned off.

" does that include the countless young girls and women that are raped by their father/brother/uncles "
And the baby is aborted, and the abuser continues to abuse.
Abortion doesn't make the rape and incest go away.

every child deserves to be wanted 100% by both its parents. if this is not the case then how abortion is the right thing to do. imo it doesnt matter if the reasons are selfish or unselfish. if there is any doubt about a child being wanted there should be no shame or guilt in abortion.

i find pro life very oppressive indeed. the only thing pro choicers tell you is 'do whats best for you and have the freedom to make that choice' whereas prolifers will tell you to continue with a pregnancy no matter what the consequences. i think pro life is pretty anti women too.

and this notion that some abortions are more valid than others is bullshit too.

that is a great post suntangirl and sums my views up perfectly.

" i find pro life very oppressive indeed "
I don't think that is very surprising.
Anything that curtails our absolute freedom feels oppressive.
I daresay the anti slavery campaign felt quite oppressive at the time too.

But the girl/woman should go through pregnancy caused by the rape
And then should live the rest of her life with the reminder of it.
Or she could give the child away- because children in care have such lovely lives

bet whoever came up with this 'lets compare abortion to slavery cos that'll get 'em' was dead pleased with themselves.

i ask you

but then in that case you could compare abortion to formula feeding - ;)

Queenmary: still interested to know who among myself, my family and healthcare providers you believe deserve life sentences, ...

winnybella - precisely