to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

it was support wtf do you expect her to do lend me some of her own money

your statement was wrong, they do give support, they are limited on what support they can give. i know because i got it i was far less confused walking out than when i walked in and she gave me numbers for counselling services in our area

like i said before i knew deep down i was not having a termination but i needed some support and that is what i got (have had 2 before, when i found i it felt wrong, i didn't want to be pregnant and this time i felt differently)

but you seem to know better perhaps you have frequented these clinics to test them out

No midwife palpated my uterus to give vague predictions at any point, because where I live, pregnancies are followed by real doctors with access to modern technology. How a fetus grows and in which position he lies is all determined without having to be manhandled by an ignorant judgmental witch like you. Thankfully.

Maybe off topic, but midwives are trained medical professionals, not crystal waving nutters. Just saying like. In fact many people can't see why pregnancy an enitrely natural act that doesn't for one second mean you are ill would be handled by a doctor.

Queen.....

Out of interest a little girl of 12 is raped by her Uncle.... does she get to abort the fetus.

"My 10 year old is pretty dependent on me still but I can't see the courts being impressed if I decide to terminate her"

it's a different discussion. your daughter can be handed over to state care. an unborn child cannot be handed over to state care or anyone else without being removed from teh uterus.

Queen - Part of the problem might be that you are just not very good with the English language:

"I do not support the legality of abortion. Shorthand: I am anti abortion."

This is correct. You are against abortions. This is what we call "anti-abortion".

"You do support the legality of abortion. Shorthand: You are pro abortion."

This is simply wrong. "Pro-abortion" would be someone who wants to see all pregnancies end in abortions. If there are any nuts that fit this description on earth, they have to be a rare species, indeed. This is probably why there is no such term.

The correct term is "pro-choice", because we think that pregnant women should be able to choose between continuing with their pregnancy & having a baby and having an abortion. We believe that the choice should be available to them, safe and legally.

[drums fingers on desk]

Maybe off topic, but midwives are trained medical professionals, not crystal waving nutters. Just saying like. In fact many people can't see why pregnancy an enitrely natural act that doesn't for one second mean you are ill would be handled by a doctor

Thank you Lola
Better you said that than me.

When I use the shorthand "pro abort" I simply mean that you support the abortion law. That's all.
"Pro choice" is a very misleading and inaccurate term because no one really believes everyone should be free to choose whatever they want to do.
That's why we have certain laws which curtail our freedom to make all kinds of "choices".
Choices that are predicated on my needs and hurt other people are bad choices.

Pro choice puts the woman in the centre of this issue, queen, where she should be.

Still wondering whether the 12 year old should be allowed an abortion?

"When I use the shorthand "pro abort" I simply mean that you support the abortion law. That's all."

back pedalling is very obvious queen. you could have clarified that at the first objection to the term, you didn't you continued using it to provoke and offend.

your argument is valid. the manner in which you 'debate' it is immature and damages your debate greatly. people would be far more willing to discuss if you approached this in a far more respectful manner.

" it's a different discussion. your daughter can be handed over to state care. an unborn child cannot be handed over to state care or anyone else without being removed from teh uterus "

But with abortion it is essential that the baby is not born alive, thus creating a dilemma about whether to help it live or let it die.

This is why many induction abortions kill the baby beforehand with an injection of kcl to the fetal heart under guided ultrasound.

If it was all about being pregnant and not wanting the baby to continue renting the womb then such cases would not be problematic.
A baby that was born alive would simply be taken care of.
but people don't want aborted babies to be born alive do they?
That would be horrendous.
So better to kill them first to obviate the ethical dilemma.

" Still wondering whether the 12 year old should be allowed an abortion? "

Check out the other thread.
There are too many things here to discuss without going over old questions.
because the pro abort argument relies on appeals to emotion the argument is always ramped up to the nth degree.
What do hard cases make?
Bad law.

Now how about boohoo explaining why abortion in order to avoid potential mastitis is reasonable?

queenmary quote me in context and i will give you your answer. twist my words and i cant have a reasonable discussion with you.

" "When I use the shorthand "pro abort" I simply mean that you support the abortion law. That's all "

back pedalling is very obvious queen. you could have clarified that at the first objection to the term, you didn't you continued using it to provoke and offend.

your argument is valid. the manner in which you 'debate' it is immature and damages your debate greatly. people would be far more willing to discuss if you approached this in a far more respectful manner "

So using the term "pro abort" to indicate people that are "pro the abortion law" is offensive and immature and damages the debate.
But calling me "shit that won't flush" and a "judgemental witch"?
That's ok?

Thats exactly what we believe, that all women should have the free choice to do exactly what they wish to do with their own bodies. Thats why we are PRO-CHOICE.

If you are pregnant, you and only you should be able to choose whether you wish to have a baby or have an abortion. I have no opinion what you should do, no matter what your circumstances, no matter what your reasons, no matter when. PRO-CHOICE, I am for your personal choice with no interference from anyone else.

no they would not all be taken care of. in many countries if a woman is unmarried and falls pregnant the baby is often killed to not bring shame on the family, and often she is too.

female infanticide is still a problem in some countries in the middle east and asia particularly india. the babies are often left to die through neglect from birth

BooyHoo - pro-choice is just a euphemism, as is social-termination. Why not just call a spade a spade - ie 'pro-abortion' and 'killing unwanted babies' - then we all know where we stand.

try reading mine and other posts, mdowdall, and stop telling people what they think. I know what I think, you do not.

Lola - Yes, midwives are trained for their jobs, but their palpating is no match for the ultrasound machine. At this day and age, someone pushing on your tummy to guess the gestational age of the fetus is ludicrous. But it happens because of understaffing, unavailability of proper equipment, and lack of funding. Not because pregnancy is not an illness.

It is not as bad as gazing into a crystal ball, but nowhere near as accurate as a specialist operating an ultrasound machine.

The idea that abortion is a "right"
is false

The law doesn't seem to think so.

queenmary i have not insulted you so please dont associate me with those that have. again you are twisting my words. i did not say that using the term 'pro-abort' to indicate people that are pro the abortion law is offensive and immature.

i said you manner is immature and damages the debate. but you will ignore this post as you want to keep ranting. you are not here to debate you are here to cause controversy on a thread that should be discussed sensibly. you haven't responded reasonably to any of the serious question you have been asked you have ignored most of them (teh ones you cant answer whilst sticking with your side of the debate) and the ones you have answered you have answered by throwing about extremely emotive terminology in an attempt only to guilt-trip and offend. it is very clear that debate is not what you want here. i will engage no furtehr with you. you can say what you want about me not having any further argument to oppose your views but i and otehr reading can clearly see what is happening here.

Thank you, Crapola

"I have no opinion what you should do, no matter what your circumstances, no matter what your reasons, no matter when. PRO-CHOICE, I am for your personal choice with no interference from anyone else. "

exactly this msteak. well put.