to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

Actually I'll rephrase that last post to unplanned pregnancy

One last teeny comment and then I really am off:
Booyhoo
" closed-minded i would say queeny. you aren't open to any opinion that doesn't tally with your own "

Indeed boohoo.
I am so stuffy and closed minded about the matter of killing babies. I must learn to be more open minded like you.
You are clearly so tolerant of differing perspectives and so interested in hearing where other people are coming from.
You are a veritable model of open mindedness bohoo.

FreudianSlipper

Surely there has to be some limit? 8 months 3weeks 6 days?

think this whole thread shows how difficult this issue is... I think i agree withoriginal poster - if you believe one thing you can't ignore it... but also I think women should have complete access to abortion guess I'm conflicted

why wouldn't you be openminded though queen? why would you be so black and white about this? as the saying goes "LIFE isn't black and white" (and you are the very one saying this is life) so why on earth take a black and white approach to it?

mdowdall since I'm the one who mentioned 'dogma' and I fear you might be hanging your last ignorant post on that representation of the arguments of some others on the thread, I feel compelled to respond to you. I do feel that some on this thread have been dogmatic in expressing their views, but I am referring to the abortion debate specifically, not to feminism or 'the left' and certainly not to lesbianism

I align myself with the left wing politically, and I am most certainly a feminist, despite the view of some that a person isn't allowed to call herself that unless she has no moral qualms with abortion-on-demand to 42 weeks. I'm not a lesbian, but I wouldn't consider it an insult to be called that so I don't know what you're getting at there.

All feminists believe that women and girls are entitled to equality in regard to their human and civil rights and in regard to access and opportunity in every arena of society.

Some feminists believe that, by virtue of the fact that it grows inside a woman's body (and is, up to a point, reliant on that body for survival), a foetus is not a human being in its own right and therefore does not have the same rights as a woman or a man or a born baby.

Other feminists believe that regardless of what stage of development it's at, a foetus is a human being in its own right and is therefore equal to a woman, man, or born baby in regard to its right to life.

Neither of these is a feminist nor an anti-feminist belief; they are different beliefs about the origin of life and the nature of humanity, not about the equality or inequality of the sexes.

Some feminists believe that when it comes to the emotive and complex issue of abortion, all women must believe the same thing and must never question or complicate the pro-choice argument, and to do so means that they are not actually feminists at all.

Other feminists, such as myself, believe that individual women should be able to draw their own intellectual, moral, and philosophical conclusions when it comes to the questions that abortion raises, without fear of being painted as anti-feminist by those who believe that their view is the only valid one.

re last poster - almost but not completel agree - doesn't the baby / foetus father have an equal right?

if i feel a women has the right to have that choice to have control over her body so how can i put limitations on that

are terminations being given so late in the pregnancy (unless the womens life is at risk) i very very much doubt it actually happens

Terminations so late in pregnancy aren't available now, FreudianSlipper, unless there is a compelling circumstance such as the one you mention.

Some would argue that this is too restrictive and abortion on demand should be freely available to term. Some would also argue that this is the only truly feminist view on the issue.

I disagree.

I do think it is wrong to abort a baby because it is inconvenient or doesn't fit in with your life plan

Well then, you would rather I bought an unwanted and unplanned baby into this world, would you? And resented it.

Because you do, you know, you DO resent babies. I was resented. I have no relationship with my mother what so ever, because she didn't want me. But she was talked into having me against her wishes.

When YOU have lived with 38yrs of pain & rejection, you come back tell me that no woman has the right to choose when she carries & gives birth to a baby.

yeah but you can't decide this question on 1 particular experirence.. and would you still prefer your mother had abortion rather than you had your life?

I was actually quite shocked to find the stance on mumsnet (of all places!) to be so pro - choice

Why the shock? Shocked to find put that a large majority on here are grown up & care enough for their fellow women that they see the need for safe, accessible terminations? Why wouldn't they be?

and to read about so many women who have had abortions and feel absolutely no guilt or remorse for their decision

Why should we regret a choice that freed us so much? I would be such a different person now if I had continued with the pregnancy I terminated. I had antenatal depression during the 9 weeks I was pregnant. I wanted to kill myself to make it go away. Several times I contemplated smashing my car into a wall to get rid of emotional pain. That would have left 2 children motherless. Or do those existing children have less rights than a foetus too?

ll31

Yeah, sometimes I wish I didn't have to live with the pain.

and that one human being's right to life is more important than another human being's right to make a choice in regard to continuing a pregnancy

Read that VERY carefully. You are saying that the baby's right to life is MORE IMPORTANT than the mother's right to make a choice.

Therefore, that the foetus IS more important.

Very cleverly worded, but no denying the message.

oh differentnamefortis - but would you genuinely rather not be here.. I know I would have possibly simlar issues .. stillhave almost 50 yrs old ...but still.... I'm sorry for your pain truly , and I genuinely do possibly understand as would have sijmilar feelings re not being wanted etc.. am just consumed with hope that I willnot do same thing with my own child...

re abortion... and original poster .. personally I feel fairly strongly that any child has right to life whatever circumstances....but yep I know the difficulties that can cause..

diffname for this - hope you are having nice life now

Surely if you are choosing to have sex and you don't want children you should be taking precautions

And there it is....the huge fucking offensive myth that those who had termination never used contraception.

I was using the mini pill & condoms. As I was exclusively breastfeeding.

to be honest diffnamesfor this - yep I would think b abyies or foetus right to life takes precedence.. sorry.. and yes I know what you're saying re leaving 2 children motherless......

I really dont' know.. in ideal world you'd have support you needed and if you , with that support, decided on abortion, you'd have support in that decision

I just think prob abortions happen with no support available...

anyway, hope you're happy and are doing well

ll31

Thank you. I do have a good life now, but it is overshadowed by what I experienced. We never bonded, she admitted to trying to self abort, which has left me permanently scared.

I have pity for her, not hate her. I used too hate her, but that just destroyed me. Pity because she never had a choice really. When I was pregnant with the unwanted pregnancy I could see what she saw, I felt how she felt. Only while I had nothing but support, she had several people (my dad & her brothers) trying to convince her it would all be OK. But where were those people when I was born? Getting on with their lives, they didn't help her bond with a disfigured baby (cleft lip) or feed it. I was painstakingly spoon feed. Think about that, and think about how hard that would have been, for a new mother, possibly experiencing some type of depression. Having to spoon feed a baby she deeply resented. While looking after 2 under 5 & 7yr old.

I am angry at her because I didn't need to know the basics of what happened. That she didn't want me...I knew it. But I don't think she needed to confirm it. Angry because she could have just hidden it better maybe. To make it worse, my father left when I was 5. So it was just her, me & my sister (dad took my 2 brothers) and I wish that he had taken me.

And it has left me with the legacy of questioning ever relationship I have ever had/have. Because, if your on mother can't love you, who can?

These are things that people don't think about. They are happy to tell pregnant women that they will not regret the choice to keep the baby, and in most cases, that is true. But in some, it isn't. And it causes so much pain when she does regret that baby.

But why is the foetus more important?

"You are saying that the baby's right to life is MORE IMPORTANT than the mother's right to make a choice.
Therefore, that the foetus IS more important.
Very cleverly worded, but no denying the message"

differentname

I assume that the poster you're quoting was making the point that if you have to make a decision in a situation where two people's rights are in conflict with each other, that decision must be based on which right is most important to defend. In this case, the view is that one person's right to not be killed trumps another person's right to control of her own body. It's not saying that the foetus is more important that the woman, it's saying that the right to life (whether a woman's life, a man's, a child's or a foetus') is more important than any other right.

The argument only works, of course, if you are of the belief that a foetus is a human person and therefore is entitled to human rights. But that belief is where the argument is coming from, and in that context it is a logical one to make.

oh sounds awful but yes I know feeling of being unwanted.

Why is foetus more improtant - probably in fact no doubt I'd just feel that foetus / baby is younger than us so therefore has more right to life than we do? prob makes no sense.. but like as if , if i was in fire I'd want my child to survive ahead of me, partly cos my child is so young that it seems "fairer" for my child to survive ahead of me cos I've had more life than them.. truthfully I just feel that once foetus/baby is there then they're deserving of our support ...

Ok, well, my assumption about ll31's reasons for that argument were wrong.

But I do think that for many pro-life people (and many who, like myself, are pro-choice in the sense that they believe that abortion should be legal, but not in the sense that they have no ethical problems with it) it is a question of the rights being unequal, not the worth of the woman being less than equal to that of the foetus.

And a woman in an unbearable situation isn't deserving of support?

Nice. Do you ever stop to consider what life that unwanted child will have, if the mother is forced to have it?

No, I expect you don't.

I think diffname in terms of "what life unwanted child " will have - well at least he or she will have life... and truthfully (not sure who you're referring to) but yes I do consider what life unwanted child willhave...

not sure that anyone said woman in situatino wasn't deserving of support - I do think tho that in these economic times the support available will be less and less..

When you (general you) say

In this case, the view is that one person's right to not be killed trumps another person's right to control of her own body

you are saying that the mother has less rights than the baby. Therefore, the mother isn't important. Therefore taking away her rights over her own body & life.

They can dress it up all they like. In essence, there is no way of saying the above & having anyone believe that the rights are equal/not in favour of the baby.

The big fat ugly truth of it is, that some people DO NOT think a woman has the right to choose whether to continue that pregnancy, they believe once there, that baby should be carried to term & to hell with the consequences for the woman & the baby.

That view is barbaric.