to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

i am quite anti abortion and would probably not have one myself unless my life was at risk or my baby was not going to survive beyond birth, but don't want to remove others choice completely. it is certainly not socially acceptable to admit to being aginst abortion on mumsnet which is sad. however, i suspect that for all except a few people - who would decry abortion in all cases , or those who would allow it until term in all cases, the situation is hazy.
i do think abortion is ending a life, and that this should be avoided wherever possible, but, life is messy, situations vary, and i would almost certainly go and support a friend who had been raped and had chosen to have an abortion at say, 9 weeks, without a mention of ending a life, if that was what she wanted to do, but would find it very difficult to do so if my friend, say thought she would struggle to afford the baby and wanted an abortion at 23 weeks. in this case i would probably explain that i might not be the best person to talk to and hope she received support from someone else, as i would not want to distress her.
realistically i think abortion can adn should be available as life is messy but i would like it to be less socially acceptable than it is. if my own daughter became pregnant as a teenager i would make it clear that i thought abortion was ending a life and try to support her to raise the child but if she decided to terminate i would support her fully in that decision and not berate her besides stating my opinion once and then leaving it to her to decide (although would struggle probably to accompany her to the clinic and would much prefer if someone else could take that role, but would go if i had to).
i do think that abortion of babies which have disabilities sits very uncomfortably with disability rights although again this is an unpopular view on mumsnet. however, i know that if i got accidentally pregnant now with a child with severe sn it would probably tear my marriage and family apart, so i can understand why people make this choice.

"It is simply asking that we have a bit more compassion, start behaving a little more like a civilised socity "

reposting for you as you didn't respond last time.

"you talk of compassion. is it compassion that has you forcing women to endure and unwanetd pregnancy, labour, childbirth, mastitus, the heartache of raising a child you didn't want/can't afford, or giving that child away and knowing for that one day questions will be asked and that one day you will have to tell a child that it exists for no reason other than some otehr people thought it should?"

you think that is compassion for your fellow woman?

BooyHoo - I agree, I have overstepped the mark swearing etc and I apologise.

" ^why does eceryone go to the extreme arguments - what about the run of the mill abortions - your everday - had sex, didn't take precautions - already have three kids andother kid would leave me financially strapped - kind pf abortions.

its always about one life versus another life and the rape one - yes yes etc^ "

Precisely.
And the great irony is that the pro aborts imagine themselves to be so rational and dispassionate.

The same can be said for pro-life arguments though. So many people having multiple, late abortions, using them as contraception, don't give a shit etc.

Calling people "pro-aborts" is both deeply insulting and nasty. You should be ashamed of yourself. Pro CHOICE is not pro-abortion.

but that is still taking away the right for a women to have full control over her body, she may not want to have that child or feel she is able to and that would force many women to carry on further with their pregnancies this could cause them serious emotional harm.

I notice that among the pro aborts the arguments seem to boil down to a strongly held view that I have complete sexual freedom.
Consequently I have a right to have sex with whoever I want.
Whenever I want.
However I want.
And if a new human life is engendered as a consequence of my sexual freedom then I am entitled to kill it.

BooyHoo "you talk of compassion. is it compassion that has you forcing women to endure and unwanetd pregnancy, labour, childbirth, mastitus, the heartache of raising a child you didn't want/can't afford, or giving that child away and knowing for that one day questions will be asked and that one day you will have to tell a child that it exists for no reason other than some otehr people thought it should?"
I dont think it is compassion. I think it is asking people to take responsibility for their actions. She had a choice, her unborn child wont when it gets killed.

but that is still taking away the right for a women to have full control over her body, she may not want to have that child or feel she is able to and that would force many women to carry on further with their pregnancies this could cause them serious emotional harm.
Emotional harm FreudianSlipper? Well tough titty. It's better than being dead.

mdowdall, how do you know she had a choice? i didn't mention teh circumstances of conception.

yes because all abortions are down to women not using contraception and having sex with lots of men

" Calling people "pro-aborts" is both deeply insulting and nasty. You should be ashamed of yourself. Pro CHOICE is not pro-abortion "

I'm not ashamed of myself.
Pro aborts are rarely truly pro choice in my experience.
Many women have abortions precisely because they feel they have "no choice".
In any case, who supports a womans choice to kill her born child?
Not many.
"Choice" is a smokescreen.

ok, not going to engage with you since you are highly offensive, and clearly quite mad.

"emotional harm FreudianSlipper? Well tough titty. It's better than being dead."

so what you are saying is. it is better for a woman to have a chidl she doesn't want and carry resntment for that child all her life, possibly develop depression or another MH issue as a result? you are saying it is better for a child to grow up and know that it's motehr resents it? know that it wasn't wanted? you think taht is a better damage to cause teh child?

Fine. Talk to me about the most "normal" (insofar as an unwanted pregnancy can be a normal situation) of abortions. In fact I prefer it.

I believe that every woman has an absolute right to make decisions about her own body. Whether she chooses to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, give a baby up for adoption, have an abortion due to a risk to her own life or because she just couldn't be bothered to make an appointment at the GP's to renew her prescription for the pill.

This is because, as an intelligent, emotionally mature person, her well-being outweighs that of a foetus who has none of these characteristics/capabilities just yet and because she cannot simply outsource the foetus to another, more willing host.

the compassion and support you show for women who maybe really suffering is great mdowdall.

Tbh I do respect the views on all sides of the arguement and I think its so much more complex than a lot of the recent threads have even touched on. I firmly believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

My own personal struggle is acknowledging that whilst I believe there are circumstances which I believe abortion to be an appropriate choice I therefore need to extend that to other circumstances which perhaps I would disagree with. To my mind it should be a choice or option for all and not selective to a chosen few so to speak. My interpretation of someone else's circumstances are purely subjective and I am not in a position to judge them

" yes because all abortions are down to women not using contraception and having sex with lots of men "

That's almost completely right. except it isn't necessary to have sex with lots of men to get pregnant. Just one will do.
Although I get it that you are trying to get me to say that women who have unwanted pregnancies are slappers.
I didn't say that and I don't think that either.
I do however think that we need to take responsibility for the consequences of our behaviour.
And killing the consequences is not a good way of taking responsibility.
The tough fact is that sex is not a hobby.
Sex is inextricably linked with generation and all the liberal abortion laws in the world will not change that.

MsTeak - the reason why you arent going to engage with me is because you know full well that your arguments dont hold water.
If the truth (and please point out if anything I has said is a lie or exaggerated) offends you then, yes, perhaps you'd be better off elsewhere.

i believe Msteak was talking to queenmary.

Yes, the scenarios cited in my examples are rare, which doesn't mean that it should be made legal to kill an infant because it wouldn't happen often anyway. My point was that the fact that something might be rare is hardly an argument for whether it's ethical or should be legal.

My post was specifically referring to the view that abortion should be freely available right up to 40 weeks [or hell, why not 42?]. I do believe that abortion needs to be legal and safe, because that's better than the alternatives that would flourish if it were not.

But I also believe that there is a point at which it would be delusional not to acknowledge that a baby is a baby, regardless of which side of the vagina or cesarean opening it happens to be on. It's obviously a matter of debate where that point is exactly, but the (ever changing) point of viability outside the womb seems a reasonable-if-imperfect approximation.

In any case, 40 weeks is well beyond the point at which it's a reasonable argument to call a foetus a "potential life" or a "bunch of cells" or anything other than a baby. And a baby has a right to life, and to bodily integrity, just like a woman does. It's a fact of nature that there are times when those two people's rights will be in conflict with each other, such as when attempting live delivery might kill one or both. I've already said that in such a case I think it's understandable to prioritise the woman's life.

But to pretend that there is no such dilemma, to espouse the view that a woman should be able to terminate at that point for any reason at all (and that anyone who believes otherwise is sickening and uncivilised) is such an extreme and dogmatic position that it makes it impossible to have a reasoned debate.

" you talk of compassion. is it compassion that has you forcing women to endure and unwanetd pregnancy, labour, childbirth, mastitus, the heartache of raising a child you didn't want/can't afford, or giving that child away and knowing for that one day questions will be asked and that one day you will have to tell a child that it exists for no reason other than some otehr people thought it should? "

Mastitis?
Seriously?
I cannot believe you included mastitis in a list of the things an abortion will "prevent" a woman from suffering!
And btw, no one "forces" a woman to be pregnant.
( no one Apart from "mother Nature" that is.) This is life. We get pregnant.

What a pathetic entitlement culture we have created when a woman can say that if a doctor won't agree to take his surgical instruments and kill her unborn child that he is FORCING her to be pregnant, get mastitis etc.
Abortions don't "happen". Someone has to do it for you.
And if they don't, you are being "forced to be pregnant"?
Give
me
strength

Sorry lots of x-posts. My most recent post was in response to MsTeak

This whole post is about left wing lesbian feminist dogma.