to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

maybe bubbley but what I was trying to say was that people may think that they would know how they might/would react but its never put to the test until you are in that situation.

Notadude - I wonder would your opinion change if you now struggle to conceive.

YANBU, This is a frequently of two extremes but i think quite a few people would agree to an extent,I think most people would oppose abortion at 35 weeks, particularly if they saw it performed and I think pro-lifers would support it if they had a look in edinburghs surgeons hall and saw some of the birth defects(No head or brain, 5 legs,)and why someone would not want to carry to term

bubbley:

IMHO there is a significant difference between wishing one had done something differently and believing the action actually taken to be wrong - so I think no!

If I had difficulties with conceiving, I might wish I had jumped at the chance to have a child when I could - but I can't see myself thinking that I was "wrong" in any sense except a completely selfish one. The same way I now regret the somewhat tasteless tattoo design my 18 year old self chose (because it looks cliche) but do not think that getting tattoos at eighteen is therefore wrong. Of course that's a much more lighthearted dilemma.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

I don't think being a vegan means you can empathise better what's that got to do with abortion?

somethingwitty that is similar to my situation as i fell pregnant whilst taking powerful medication which had an extremely high risk of causing harm to a foetus. The long term side effects for myself are still unknown.

We would have loved a new addition to our family but could I face loving that child knowing that I inflicted pain and potentially suffering to that child for its entire life? Knowing that from the outset the medical advice was not to continue to the pregnancy (and that there was no negotiation on that front from the medical team or the drug company) It was like being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

"If I had difficulties with conceiving, I might wish I had jumped at the chance to have a child when I could - but I can't see myself thinking that I was "wrong" in any sense except a completely selfish one."
I said this on the other thread.

I had an abortion many years ago and then had difficulties conceiving in recent years. Not once did I wish I had had a child all those years ago and nt once did I dwell on that decision.

A couple of questions for each "camp"

1. Pro-choicers: when is it not ok to terminate a pregnancy? 24 weeks? 34 weeks? Legally you can terminate up to 40 weeks for certain medical conditions. Disability rights campaigners would argue that is discriminatory.

1. Pro-lifers: are you all against the IUD as well? For this prevents implantation of the zygote and "life" has already started. And are you also against the MAP? And we can take it back even further by saying that using any contraception ( even the natural method) is preventing the potential for life ( as some religions believe)

FWIW I am pro choice but struggle with late terminations. I work in health care and have twice seen terminations at 23+ weeks for social reasons and it really haunted me afterwards that I was complicit in a procedure that was legally acceptable but probably not morally.

1. I think that people should be allowed to abort up to 40 weeks though I am uncomfortable with that idea except in very extreme circumstances. I also know that so very fer abortions take place at 24+ weeks that it would be highly unusual for abortions to be carried out as late as 40 weeks.

i am pro choice but i do respect the view that conception is the start of life and for those who believe termination is wrong whatever the circumstances, though i think at times wish some would use their discretion

the view i can not respect is i think termination is only ok if a women has been raped, if the child has disabilities but i am pro life at other times. well no you are not and why is a child conceived htrough rape or a child that has disabilities considered less worth

"However in the end I don't give a toss why people are against allowing terminations,or if 99.9% of the people of NI are,and only one woman in the whole country wants to have one. It's that one woman whose views I care about because it is her body and well being that are involved,therefore it's she,and she alone who should be allowed to dictate what is done with it."

totally agree!!

i am in northern ireland and had a terrifying few weeks recently when i thought i might have been pregnant. (call me a slut if you like madamecastafiore, i took precautions, they failed, i took MAP and my period was late so i was understandably worried. ) the thing that terrified me was that as a single mother of 2 on benefits i would have been forced to have a 3rd child that i could not support because i couldn't afford a flight to england. how logical is that? someone cant afford a £70 flight so make them have a child that will cost a shitload more than £70!! never mind the emotions attatched to being forced into having a child you cannot support. i am furious that my right to choose has been taken away. i am furious on behalf of the hypothetical child i would have been forced to give birth to and raise. i am furious for every woman in this country that has been forced to have a child because 99% of other people say she should!!

i am pro-choice.

and yes i do feel a women has the right to have a termination at any point during the pregnancy, it will not be about simply changing her mind that will be other factors that would lead her to make this decision later on in pregnancy. do i like that it happens no not at all, but it does and for me what is always the most important thing is for a woman to have total control over her body

"the view i can not respect is i think termination is only ok if a women has been raped, if the child has disabilities but i am pro life at other times. well no you are not and why is a child conceived htrough rape or a child that has disabilities considered less worth"

I think there's another aspect to this (the rape part) - which is why this argument is so misogynistic: If women who have been raped are deemed to have the right to an abortion but those who consented to sex do not, that inevitably implies that women ought to somehow be punished for agreeing to have sex, ...

that one gets me to froth at the mouth every time I hear it! In fact I have much less sympathy with that point of view than with the opinion of people who think abortion is wrong no matter what.

1. I think the current 'limit' is about right. Later for serious birth defects. I would feel uncomfortable with abortion after that, but that is just my personal opinion.

"the view i can not respect is i think termination is only ok if a women has been raped, if the child has disabilities but i am pro life at other times. well no you are not and why is a child conceived htrough rape or a child that has disabilities considered less worth"

Freudian..agree with this. Abortion is wrong under all cicrumstances...oh, except the ones I think are ok. How does that work?

mumnotmachine any woman who has access to contraception and is not using it adn having numerous abortions has little respect for her body that would be my concern rather than her have many abortions

hipsdontlie:

1. I have to admit that very late terminations feel uncomfortable to me. However, I assume that the same is the case for every woman who has one and I would never assume that my comfort is of greater importance than whichever motives have guided a pregnant woman to her decision. So, as a matter of principle, I would defend 40 weeks.

In answer to qu 1 - tbh it was hard enough going through it at just over 9 weeks. It must be unbelievably hard to be faced with a late termination and I cant imagine that any woman would make that choice lightly or without good reasons so however it I personally feel about it I too would have to agree with the right to terminate later.

so not a dude, you would support terminations at 40 weeks for "social" reasons?

learningtofly - not everyone going through a termination goes through the same emotions. Some people don't agonise at all

hipsdontlie true I have read posts that have reflected that. I can only talk from my experience

hipsdontlie:

I feel very uncomfortable with it on a personal level, but as a matter of principle: yes, I believe it's the most consistent approach and I would defend it - even if I may not feel good about it.

one reason that is cited as having a social termination (what a horrible term, no need for any labels)is that a women feels she would be unable to cope with having another child, so if forcing her to carry on the pregnancy (and there maybe many reasons she did not choose to have a termination before one being dv it is not uncommon for a partner to suddenly become violent when a women is pregnant, another being forced to keep the baby through fear of violence that happened before pregnancy, suddenly she feels safe) then yes i would support this. surely forcing her to stay pregnant could bring her serious emotional distress

NotADudeExactly, I agree with you. I can't be pro-choice if I have caveats. In fact, the existence of caveats is one of the reasons why I am not anti-abortion.

yes you are right - it is the most consistent approach.

Medically speaking, the fetus has few rights. The father has no right to express his wishes about the unborn child, the life of a woman would always come before a fetus.

The viability argument ( ie terminations are ok up to viability but not beyond) is flawed as no newborn can fend for itself so it's an arbitary cut off.

I, personally, cannot support late terminations for social reasons but accept my views are inconsistent.

That's the trouble with this topic - full of inconsistent debates so really does come down to personal choice within the law.

Sorry, not clear. One reason I believe in choice is because I believe there are caveats vis a vis the anti-abortion stance. And therefore, having chosen my stance, for me it has to be total choice. Otherwise it's not logicaly consistent enough for me.

Ugh. No better. Bedtime.