It is not a school's job to control your children, it is a school's job to educate them - it is a parent's job to get them to school with the right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn

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(excluding diagnosed behavioural SN) your thoughts?

And then it's a tricky question once you've taught them to observe a tactful silence on that side of the teacher's shortcomings, how does that carry over into other areas? How do you teach them when they should speak up and when they shouldn't? I have learnt that some things that are self evident to an adult are not self evident to a child.

I was shocked to find that my disabled dd had accepted as a matter of course that she would have to crawl into the loo on her hands and knees because the school wanted to reserve the disabled toilet for visitors, and that she had never questioned the teacher's decision to leave her alone in an empty classroom doing maths worksheets for a whole term instead of receiving any tuition, as the teacher was scared to ask the headteacher's permission to move the sets.

But dd explained that she thought querying these decisions would be seen as talking back- and I think she was probably right: those teachers would have seen it that way. The school prided itself on its discipline- which I had always seen as a good thing, as I trusted the teachers' decisions.

-But why didn't you tell us, dd?

-I thought I'd get into trouble.

What seemed obvious to me -that you can be tactful about genuine mistakes without putting up with discrimination- was far less obvious from a 10yo perspective. To her, it all came under the same heading of "talking back". So she definitely needed guidance.

I realise I am coming over as very negative on this thread- but we've had a lot of really lovely teachers too, and dd's current headteacher is a wonderful woman.

Interesting that on a thread like this it is always the other children in the class causing problems for the wonderfully behaved DC of MNetters

mighty sorry to have left your question unanswered, I had to pop out...

In response, I'm not really well qualified to judge as I teach in an international school in Germany. Actually, in our school the syllabus is spectacularly irrelevant (teaching German kids about Guy Fawkes for example), but the parents seem to want it anyway...

I think we're losing sight of the fact that most children are well behaved and want to learn. It is a disruptive minority which causes the problems.

Not mine tallulah-behaviour has never been a problem-if it was I would do something about it.

I know my DS is a disruptive influence in the class and I also know why, because he tells me. But neither his class teacher nor the head have ever mentioned anything to me, or asked for my cooperation - they've just labelled him 'troublemaker' and left it at that, and him to his own devices. He is an exceptionally able learner, and I feel the system has utterly disappointed him.

I have always thought that if mine didn't behave I would ask to go and sit next to them in class-the mere threat would probably be enough-but I have never needed even the threat.

I think complete obedience of teachers or indeed anyone is a bad thing though, too many people abuse this power to terrible ends and I for one have no problem at all with my children refusing unreasonable requests on the basis that it might keep them from harm one day.

only kidding LeQueen . There's always stuff on here about merits being given to the naughty kids....

Of course that is true. The first person they should question is mother! However, there are ways of doing it and politeness costs nothing.

Sorry-in reply to Ishani

The trouble is it's an art learning to turn down demands made of you without iffending, given the number of adults who haven't mastered it yet it's a lot to expect of children.

I delivered to school children with the right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn. Their teachers then taught them that it didn't matter if they learnt much at school as long as they managed to pass examinations. They also learnt about bullying, about schools' unwillingness to deal with it and about childish behaviour (some of it from their teachers).

I know most people think that a badly behaved child must be spoilt and probably gets away with bad behaviour at home.
My son is in YR2 and I am sure parents and teachers might have written him off.
He is not behind in anything, he has great support at home etc.
The thing is we are quite strict and he can never get away with what he gets away with at school.
He gets punished at home everytime he misbehaves in school yet he still misbehaves.
I also have a DS1 and he is a model student.

YANBU - it is worrying. My DCs aren't school age yet but I have a SIL who is currently teaching and doing very well (although emigrating) and another SIL who gave up her career in teaching because of the lack of support from senior staff. Any bad behaviour which disrupted a lesson would be immediately dismissed by the SMT and the teacher told off for failing to enforce discipline.

Interestingly, one of the children my SIL found most disruptive left school at 16 and found work with a building company. She was astonished when he turned up to do some major work on her house and couldn't have been more charming or polite so clearly the employer had managed where school and parents had failed.

I think YABU. DS is always described as polite and well behaved by his teachers, and that is down to school as much as home. The Secondary school has a set of rules about homework, behaviour, punctuality, kindness, respect and so on which it sensibly both rewards and sanctions. His primary school was also good. I do not believe that is the case in all schools, from what I have seen.

DS behaves not just because of what we have done at home but because of the school environment. If he was in a disordered school environment with no little control of bullies, it would not be in his best interests to behave well - because the whole situation would become dog eat dog.

This is also the case with the educational aspects. It is the job of both schools and parents to educate children, not just schools alone.

I agree with the OP, and I think it goes hand-in-hand with the attitude (surprisingly prevalent on MN, though by no means universal) that parenting is not a job. Parenting is a job, and one of the roles of a parent is to impart a host of self-care and basic social skills to children so that they can manage independently without a parent/nursemaid in permanent attendance to serve and guide.

If you have a child (excluding SN) then it is your job to teach them the basics. How to eat properly, as well as they can when they're little, how to sat please and thank you and how to try(and I mean try) to wipe their own bottom!! It's not rocket science, it's lack of standards that have gradually been slipping because apparently childrens' needs come first? Bollocks, you as a parent have a duty to teach your children the basics of acceptable behaviour. That's the contract you accepted when you gave birth.

Yes, people have different standards but basic manners and learning to accept that you have to do as you are told by a teacher is just common sense and parent's should respect the fact that teachers these days have a really, really toiugh job! I work with kids that demand my attention and are really put out when I ask them to wait. I explain very carefully because they are little, that they have to take turns and let other people answer the question. "My " kids aren't bad, they just have to learn but by the time they go to school, I would hope that they have learnt to sit down (for a bit), learnt to listen to others and to not sulk/cry if they get reprimanded. (and by that I mean the word "NO", just wait a little please.

parents job to get them to school with right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn....

yes i completely agree 100%

I think there are a lot of issues that teachers have to deal with that are compounded by home life that are not necessarily major behaviour issues in themselves but leave teachers spending time focusing on things rather than teaching their subjects - examples include getting pupils to pick the rubbish up that they have thrown on the floor and put it in the bin rather than expecting someone else to tidy up after them, actually come to school with something to write with, pupils falling asleep/unable to focus because they were watching TV/playing computer games until the early hours and using inappropriate language either because they are modelling what they have heard or are allowed to use it at home. All issues that have been debated elsewhere I know but I do think many of the problems at secondary do come from teenagers getting mixed messages from school and at home.

I disagree with the idea that behaviour within the classroom is down to parenting alone.. It depends on the standards of teaching too, along with mutual respect. It is up to members of staff to control the class these days, as much as it always was, and not resort to sending pupils out at the drop of a hat.

DS2s behaviour is good at home and everywhere else, except at school..He is brought up with the same standards of discipline, politeness etc as DS1, who is on course for a 1st class degree and student representative for his college. The school is the same. The difference? Well these days school sanctions are dished out left right and centre, for the most ridiculous reasons. Blue reports, green reports, amber reports, red reports, breaktime detentions, lunchtime detentions etc, as well as CCTV.. A third of the pupils are under sanction.. Point being, if the teachers dish out and run immediately along the 'sanction' route as much as they do, instead of taking some control and responsibility within the classroom, these sanctions mean nothing- they have no value to the pupils.

All the good experienced staff have left, or been made redundant, as school funding is cut (experienced teachers cost more), DS2 and i have no idea of the name of his current maths, welsh or ICT teachers, we are on class tutor no. 5 this year, and the head of year has just changed.. Wheres the consistency? The 'current' head is changing the school uniform, stating a smarter appearance will improve behaviour and work standards- meanwhile the terrapins are falling apart, and the corridors are bare with peeling paintwork.

My son is Dyspraxic, but the teachers can't seem to remember this. The head of SENCO, is also head of discipline - 2 completely contrasting roles, due to funding again.

I could go on, but basically what i'm saying is poor behaviour isn't necessarily linked to poor parenting, or simply a badly behaved child... Sometimes schools should look at themselves to see whether the pupil is simply reacting to their surroundings,and/or a lack of ability in the teacher to deliver lessons in a way that inspires the pupils, and maintains their attention!

Apologies for long rant

I do agree that there has to be some ambient level of good behaviour in a classroom for some children to behave well. My DS is only 3.6 and not yet at school - but I can see he's going to be trouble already because he's apparently easily led. He very rarely starts anything (from watching him at Little Kickers football and dance classes every week) but if one other person does something naughty, he will copy them. This is not good from my point of view and I do my best now to explain that he should listen to the teacher and do what the teacher says - but still, he plays up when someone else does. I have 1.5y to break him of that habit - fingers crossed!

A friend of mine has 3 DC - the youngest is a terror at home but apparently beautifully behaved at school because most other children are. So there is something to be said for it not always being the parents/home environment at fault.