It is not a school's job to control your children, it is a school's job to educate them - it is a parent's job to get them to school with the right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn

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(excluding diagnosed behavioural SN) your thoughts?

Lord no, it was just something I was told eons ago - probably whilst at school! It may not be true but it seemed to make sense that as well as improving matters for children compulsory education freed up employment.

Don't know anyone with that attitude, LeQueen, sounds awful.

Having said that, I can see GoblinChild's pov that some behaviour is actually difficult to teach at home. There is plenty of behaviour that is fine in the home, with only two or three people around, but which is different in a large setting and that is something that has to be learnt. Children with a good attitude and no behavioural problems will probably learn quickly- but not without some reminders.

It's just that I wonder who would benefit from that. There wasn't dole at the time, so the exchequer wouldn't benefit and the employers wouldn't benefit as they would have to pay more in wages.

Good point - I don't know! Perhaps it is balls then.

*I also think that poor quality nursery care is just as much to blame, it's not all bad parenting. Lots of children will have spent a long time in group care already by the time they get to school but if the quality is not that good then it's the children who will suffer the consequences later at school.
This is why it is important that the early years workforce is as skilled as it could be. Except it isn't going to happen without a huge government investment and we have no chance of that under Tweedle Dumb and Even Dumber. *

Sorry but I disagree. The responsibility still lies with the parent, even if they choose to subcontract that to a nursery. It's not the government's responsibility to make your child behave

but surely the school plays its part too, remember not all kids have brothers/sisters family nearby and kids react differently when there#s a whole bunch of them.

so (why is this in aibu and not education?) yes yabu and very naive

my son never sat still in carpet time, personally i think they should ban it or let those who want it have it and let the more active kids run about a bit

I think things have changed over the years in what we,as parents, expect from school.

They are often damned if they do, damned if they don't. We ask the schools to do everything from basic social skills to accomodating our every PFB whim, we insist that our children our G and T (when the reality is they are just normal) yet if they are struggling in anything, why, that's the teacher's fault as well. We want the school to make our divilspawn behave when we can't, and then if divilspawn gets shouted out, diddums, we're down there with the mob baying for blood.

All in all, I agree with LeQ.

I think good behaviour has to be a 3-way contribution between parents, children & school. Both of my children have been brought up to be polite, respectful and, basically, do as they are told. At home they do this (most of the time anyway ). DS2 has always been "a good boy" at school too - he is just finishing Year 5 now & we have always had very positive comments from his teachers about his behaviour. However, DS1 is a little more of a "sheep", shall we say. His behaviour is generally good & he certainly doesn't speak to teachers in the way that some of the children in his school (secondary) reportedly do, in fact he's never rude to the staff at all BUT if he is in a class where the teacher does not have control behaviour wise and everybody else is chatting/getting up/messing about then he will too. In that situation the discipline needs to be coming from the teacher concerned rather than us. The child also needs to realise that the good behaviour they have been taught at home still applies when they walk through the school gates, even though mum/dad can't see or hear them! I'm specifically thinking of a couple of boys in DS2's class who are "angels" at home but right little so & so's in school .

TimeWasting, Georgimama - I studied the sociology of education at 'A' level and we learnt that free state education was a by-product of the industrial revolution, designed, in other words, to provide a fairly literate, compliant work force for the factories.

This will only get worse with the cuts being made to sure start centres and the like. There will be many more children coming through the system that have never experienced any kind of group setting and do not know how to behave as a consequence. There will be plenty more children from deprived areas whose parents lack the skills to teach them this, who slip through the net because they are no longer attending places where those needs can be picked up.

It's all well and good saying it isn't the school's role and it isn't (adding that burden to a teacher's existing role would be ridiculous), but what are we going to do about the increasing number of children that arrive at school without these skills? Are we going to write off all these kids - none of whom are to blame for their parents inadequacies.

What do teachers think is the solution? I expect it's a discussion that's been had in many classrooms. Most teachers I know are very caring about the children they come across, even the 'troublemakers', so I expect they've tried to come up with answers as well as criticisms. What are those suggestions?

Totally agree op. Had a conversation with a school mum yesterday after the kids were given their end of term report cards. Her six year old is a little unruly, no sn diagnosis and it looks like he is beginning to settle down now. What was interesting is when this mum told me she was putting more boundries in place and what also made a huge difference was spending 15 minutes quality time with him each day. If she didn't do that, she really noticed a decline in behaviour.

15 minutes? Is that even an issue for some people? I know we are all busy and loads work full time, but if we struggle to devote 15 minutes to a child each day, is it any wonder there are behaviour issues?

"It's not the government's responsibility to make your child behave"
That's not what I said at all!
It is in the government's (and society's) interest to ensure that children leave school with the basic requirements to play a part in society by making sure that children get the best education.
Otherwise it costs more to cope with the fallout, such as crime, drugs, domestic abuse, benefits etc, etc.

southeastastra I think quite a few children struggle with the formality of carpet time when they are little. However, I don't think it's really the answer to let some of the class run around if they'd prefer that. One of the first lessons that school does have to teach is that we do what our teacher says, when she/he says. In my experience, little ones do get some "choosing time" in a day - but there has to be structure too.

i'm all for leaving them to start school later though - and can only go on my son's education experience where i knew he would sit better if allowed more freedom to run about. (i'm talking under 5) they structure too soon (though my older son loved the formality)

Surely children have got to learn to sit still for carpet time eventually - otherwise how on earth are they going to sit through three hour exams when they get to 16?

(Don't tell me, GCSEs don't involve 3 hour exams anymore I expect)

MightyAphrodite, that was my understanding too. Good little workers who won't question orders.

you can't compare an under 5 to a 16 year old

At the risk of sounding even more back-in-my-day than I already do, back in my day there was no nursery provision in the town I lived in, and yet somehow we all coped with starting school and being expected to behave in a certain way. 42 kids in my primary class, and I don't remember witnessing any big bad behavioural issues.

We didn't have a carpet for carpet time though, we sat at our desks and the teacher read to us.

YANBU.

MightAphrodite - how interesting. I wonder how much the basic model of education has changed since then?

ITA with your post title. Unfortunately some parent are over entitled fuckwits who don't see (or don't care about) the value of an education.

I'm uneasy at the underlying assumption here that it is socially and economically deprived families who are mainly at fault. Although it is true that many children from such a background can find it difficult to behave when starting school, it is definitely not limited class wise. Indeed at dc school some of the ostensibly more "privileged" are culprits (or perhaps victims). Whilst cutbacks to Surestart may have a negative effect in some areas actually they haven't been as succesful as hoped in targetting those who could most benefit from the support with parenting etc offered and getting children into social environments before school age which they otherwise might not. Lack of social boundaries and behaviour guidance form parents is as fundamentally worrying as the report that 1:3 primary aged children in London apparently did not own a book :( despite initiatives such as World Book Day and Bookstart.

DD (13) told me not to expect much in the way of marks/exam results for French/Spanish & RE

When I asked why; she said she was in the level 3 group & most of the teachers was spent telling people off & they didn't get much time for class work so aren't covering the syllabus

I was a bit