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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

It is not a school's job to control your children, it is a school's job to educate them - it is a parent's job to get them to school with the right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn

171 replies

activate · 11/06/2011 09:27

(excluding diagnosed behavioural SN) your thoughts?

OP posts:
nickschick · 11/06/2011 11:13

My ds2 has a long term illness and at the moment is behaving dreadfully at home and at school Sad theres lots of factors in why this is but its certainly not down to parenting,even the police (who unfortunately were involved at one point)said this,We have 3 dc who have all been taught 'social nicety' and they do all have very good manners even ds2 in the height of his bad behaviour will carry an older ladies bags and help random people (these events I find out about later as he is in no rush to tell me) indeed whilst being very bad in school he still opens the door for teachers and offers his seat.

He is at the moment the child you all would say was the class nuisance if he werent my son id be ringing school to say he was putting my childs education at risk Sad.

The school has a new headmaster a dynamic hard hitting problem shooter headmaster - in the first few days ds2 was excluded,we assumed expulsion was next especially when we were advised a letter was coming.....a letter arrived and it was an apology!! the head said things were handled badly and he would sort it out - now he has worked a very good relationship with ds2 not through being gushy not through being a ruler but by treating ds2 as an individual and 'listening' to him and seeing the behaviour is a result of anothers actions......he refers to ds2 as kiddo and ds2 has ultimate respect for him.

If it werent for this true professional able to see beyond the child and not apportion 'blame' upon parenting ds2 might have an entirely different story.

thumbwitch · 11/06/2011 11:16

OP I totally agree with you.

My Dad was a teacher - he's now in his late 70s. He was a schoolteacher when he first left university then moved on to being a university lecturer. In his late 50s and 60s he did some supply teaching at secondary level again - so, a gap of around 30 years. In those years, the change in behavioural standards was shocking to him - but not just of the pupils! In his early teaching days, generally if a pupil was put in detention or behaved badly enough to be suspended/expelled, the parent backed up the school and punished the child as well. But in these times, half the time if a child was punished at school, one or other parent would come up to the school and berate the teacher for daring to do anything to their child.

This isn't limited to one "class" of parent, either - it's across the board - the rough'n'ready estate parents who won't have their child "dissed" to the UMC mammas whose little precious is always allowed to have its own way at home because "little Tarquin is just so clever".

Dad was even more horrified that when he sent disruptive elements out of the classroom to see the deputy head, this man just sent them back again, no punishment, no nothing. If Dad sent them to stand in the corridor, then another teacher would ask them what they were doing out there and make them go back in. There was no cohesive way of dealing with disruptive children and so they ran wild.

In the end Dad refused to have them in his classroom - the rest of the class settled down enormously once the one or two troublemakers were out of the room and he started being able to get their education level back on track. These were 14/15yos, doing languages, who had barely covered the work they should have done aged 12.

I'm not saying that what Dad did was exactly right - but what the school themselves were doing was letting everyone down. The children who want to learn couldn't because of the disruption, the disruptive elements couldn't be punished because of their parents and the school administration (Head, Deputy etc.) were too lily-livered to take charge of the situation.

ninah · 11/06/2011 11:16

'Have lots of friends who teach primary school and they deplore parents who stress that their 5 year old isn't free-reading yet, but are oblivious that their child is rude, won't listen to instructions'
Spot on LQ.
As for carpet time, I see what sea is saying. It does represent more innate effort for some children to sit at these times than others. Surely there has to be a compromise position where dc can be supported rather than left to run free. Atm one such child - very physically restless - helps me get belongings ready at the end of the day instead of sitting for a story. He is not being singled out for this - I was fed of seeing him being put at a table as a sanction each day and spending the time grimacing and clowning so I asked if I could have him instead, and now he volunteers. I try to make it a learning opportunity by introducing covert maths, general knowledge etc. He will also ask to read to me.

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 11:17

It works the other way round too, of course. How many parents feel they have to make up for lax teaching by doing the teacher's job at home?

nickschick · 11/06/2011 11:19

Thumbwitch i totally see your Dads point the way ds2 was behaving if hed have been in my class i think id have been tempted to say well as you have no intention of working heres a colouring book - go outside and colour.

I told the acting head this and he grinned and said hed vote for me.

Its awful that sometimes 80% of a lesson period canbe spent settling the students down.

nickschick · 11/06/2011 11:21

Ninah - youre a good 'un Smile

Mighty aphrodite - ive been there too,good teachers are worth their weight.

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 11:28

nickschick - a teacher should always look at what's behind behaviour issues. I'm getting more and more reluctant to 'discipline' even the 'serial offenders' Smile (my pupils are quite young though, and unlikely to cause severe damage or injury). Given my general opinion of school as an institution, I can't put my heart into punishing the pupils who are of my way of thinking 35 years ahead of their time Grin.

It saddens me though, that students who could achieve, albeit within a fault-ridden system, don't get the chance because their home environment hasn't equipped them with the necessary basic skills.

LDNmummy · 11/06/2011 11:29

I don't teach yet, but plan on going down that route in the next couple of years. My DH is a secondary school teacher.

Many parent's take little interest in what their children are learning. As a result, my DH has to not only encourage the children to put an effort into their work, but he even has to spend time contacting parents to encourage them to take notice.

Of course this isnt all parents, but almost always the parents of disruptive children.

Well trained teachers nowadays are very good at spotting children who may have undiagnosed SN. The problem is that not all teachers are well trained IMO.

But then there is the biggest looming problem of all, the socio-economic conditions that affect many children negatively.

For instance, there are more children of foreign language speaking parents than there used to be. Many of these children have massive responsibilities at home in helping their parents with day to day tasks that involve communication outside the home. Some of these children may turn up late to school because they have spent the morning down at the Post Office helping their parent's to fill in forms. Or they have been helping them with a doctor's appointment, or to take care of important phone calls that need to be made. (my DH had to deal with an issue like this recently and the poor child was under so much pressure at home that school was the last thing on his mind)

And then there are the children who are foreign language speakers too and who cannot speak English well themselves.

Another problem could be a child who's home environment is chaotic because the parents have 8 children living in a 3 bedroom home that lacks any sense of organisation.

There are of course children from poorer backgrounds too who have to deal with all that results from a lack of monetary stability.

Children who's parents have to work full time seven days a week to get by. They tend to lack a structured home life with parental presence.

And then there are the parents who lack education themselves and stupidly believe that schools are made not only to educate, but to raise their children for them. Those parents do exist too.

Unfortunately all these types of things affect a childs behaviour, emotional stability, attitude to learning and education and ability to socialise well within school bounderies.

It is the responsibility of parents, but our type of society has created a situation where it is out of many parents' hands due to day to day living pressures and obstacles IYSWIM. Many parents don't have the time to teach their kids these valuable skills, or lack the education to do it.

It is not the schools job, but unfortunately nowadays it is the only place many children get any parenting at all. Some teachers become more of a parental figure to children in their class than the actual parent.

I'm talking about city school situations primarily.

LDNmummy · 11/06/2011 11:30

Woah that was longer than I realised Blush

ninah · 11/06/2011 11:31

thanks nc
on gtp this sept and feeling a bit daunted at what's involved, so that's encouraging!

NotJustKangaskhan · 11/06/2011 11:35

Behavioural and social abilities are a part of education. I think the mental and emotional skills needed to behave and act socially in society should definitely be part of the curriculum - as much a part as reading and writing. These things need to be taught and practised. I really think that if a child doesn't have these skills, there isn't really much point in teaching anything else.

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 11:37

There is no way schools can keep up with massive socio-economic changes, and some might ask - why should they. I mean - why introduce interactive whiteboards to mimic the TV/computer screen and catch and maintain childrens' attention, when pupils might be better served by activities designed to improve their attention span. is that controversial? I promise I'm not a Luddite Grin

cory · 11/06/2011 11:56

MightyAphrodite Sat 11-Jun-11 11:06:10
"TimeWasting - there's a difference between asking the teacher a question and questioning the teacher"

Yes, but a child with an intellectual bent will have to tread carefully. "How can this picture be evidence of medieval life when they are all wearing Elizabethan clothes?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask your mother, but would be taken as cheek by many teachers?

I have had to do a lot of gentle training of dd in this area: what do you do when your teacher gives the wrong information/ tries to make you say things in an incorrect French accent/ gives you a task that is impossible to do because she has left out vital information.

I try to make her understand that she doesn't have to believe anything without checking it, but that she must always be mindful of other people's feelings. And that can mean keeping your mouth shut!

But not keeping it shut all the time- I also got angry when she failed to stand up for an injured child who was being bullied by the teacher. Learning how to prioritise and how to put your point across well.

I was a horrible little child who corrected teachers non-stop. I was factually right pretty well all the time, but I could have done with someone explaining that a sound knowledge of history and a good accent in foreign language is not the only skill you are supposed to take away from your education: there is something called social skills as well.

Goblinchild · 11/06/2011 11:59

'Yes, but a child with an intellectual bent will have to tread carefully. "How can this picture be evidence of medieval life when they are all wearing Elizabethan clothes?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask your mother, but would be taken as cheek by many teachers? '

I truly hope you are hypothesising, in my school and my children's schools that would be appreciated as a question and taken as a sign of real analytical thinking.

LeQueen · 11/06/2011 12:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 12:08

Cory, Goblinchild - that's the thing, though, isn't it? There are no hard and fast rules for anything in life. If Cory's DD asked a question in an inappropriate tone of voice once or twice, she would learn to adjust the tone, without compromising her genuine desire to learn. Probably about 99% of the time we just make life up as we go along.

cory · 11/06/2011 12:14

Goblin, it's when you have a teacher who is making mistakes week after week, and who seems really insecure (talking secondary level here, which makes it all a bit more sensitive).

Dd's history teacher in Yr 7 had a very shaky grip on history- there would have been something to query in every lesson. The Elizabethan clothes was only one example: it was a project to write on the development of views on medieval witchcraft 1100-1350, using supplied illustrated material- dd looked those pictures up and the earliest was a tract on witchcraft from 1599. Same teacher also set a project on Medieval British People in which she included Saint George (!) among her suggested topics but was reluctant to let dd do Eleanor of Aquitaine because she was foreign.

Her French teacher in Yrs 7 and 8 had a British accent that you could cut with a knife; seriously, if you started querying one word you would be querying every single word that came out of her mouth (I heard her on Parents Evening, so am not relying on dd's word for this).

It is not a bad school- I am sure the other teachers knew- but for that reason I cannot imagine either teacher would have been delighted to have her shortcomings pointed out in front of the whole class.

cory · 11/06/2011 12:16

Mighty, I think children often need a bit of gentle guidance as to what is appropriate and what can upset people. They are so used to being told off and criticised that they don't realise that it feels totally different for someone in a position of authority: dd would be quite sad to think she had upset anyone.

Goblinchild · 11/06/2011 12:18

That is dreadful, and an issue for senior management I think. I've co-ordinated a lot of different subjects over the years, and it's my job to make sure crap like that doesn't happen in my subject area.
Many teachers are very good about asking for appropriate resources, advice and the rest, I do it for stuff I'm not sure about, or some of the new-and-shiny ideas that come along.

'Probably about 99% of the time we just make life up as we go along.' Grin

TheFlyingOnion · 11/06/2011 12:25

I think my post talking about children answering back and questioning the teacher may partly have sparked this off. I just want to clarify that I don't mean asking the teachers questions in the lessons, at all.

I mean the "stop it" "why should I?" type of cheek. I have one child (educated family, lots of money) who will argue the toss with me over everything from having to get ready for PE to having to stop kicking other children in the playground. That is the sort of questioning I mean.

A child can ask any (relevant) question they like during lessons....

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 12:31

Can I ask what you think about the curriculum load? Are teachers trying to get through too much at the expense of working on activities that could improve pupils' social skills?

TheFlyingOnion · 11/06/2011 12:37

I think the opposite actually.

I'd rather spend more time teaching and less time hand-holding.

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 12:37

In parallel to posting here, I'm working on a translation (Greek to English) concerned with quality in education. I'll post any interesting snippets I come accross...

MightyAphrodite · 11/06/2011 12:43

I know what you mean, TFO, but given that in any classroom, there are bound to be 'issues' that need to be dealt with, is the teaching load so heavy that the teacher doesn't have the time to address problems effectively? I agree that spending half the lesson sorting out petty issues is annoying, but at least I don't have to teach at breakneck speed to get through everything before exam time. That's what I meant.

animula · 11/06/2011 12:52

I agree with sunshineandbooks. And I think the question about what is going to be done for those schools that have to put an enormous amount of work in to get children "school-ready" is important.

It's not an issue for the majority of schools, but in those schools where it is an issue, it is a big one. And, partly because it's not a problem spread equally through all schools, across the country, there isn't really enough funding, training, etc. to deal with it at the moment. Hard for there to be, really, when government's do have to deal in solutions and strategies for the majority.

I do worry about the impact of "financial restraint".

It may not, technically, be part of a school's job, and it shouldn't be, really. There should be people trained in this, rather than some poor multi-tasking teacher or T. A., doing this when necessary, alongside trying to provide teaching for those who are school-ready. But it is necessary, in some schools, and it just seems very unacknowledged at the moment. Or rather, acknowledged, and then passed over.

And the causes of not being "School-ready" are quite diverse. Arriving traumatised, without much English; being based in a fairly separate culture, again, with little English - these are as important as undiagnosed SN, poverty (which can impact on the experience and maturity of a child) and "less than optimal parenting. And that latter is rarely as simple as it first appears too.