It is not a school's job to control your children, it is a school's job to educate them - it is a parent's job to get them to school with the right behavioural attitudes and social abilities to learn

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(excluding diagnosed behavioural SN) your thoughts?

The unruly 16 year old was probably an unruly 5 year old.
DD's music teacher told me that her class of yr9s is practically impossible to teach because they are so badly behaved. DD loses out because she wants to learn but most of the lesson is lost to crowd control.

Bucharest - that was back in my day as well! We sat at our desks and doodled/daydreamed/looked out of the window while the teacher read to us, spent ages on 'topics' of our own choosing while the teacher sat at the desk, queued up at the teacher's desk whilst working through English/Maths text books page by page....OFSTED would have failed all my lessons as a child I'm sure. I wonder if there was as much stress experienced by children as there is in today's education system?

x post with Katymac, both saying the same thing!

I have kids in my class whose parents have good educations and lots of money - they are not immune from being "bad" parents and rearing little horrors who are a nightmare in the classroom... spoiled little brats who think they have the right to question me, answer me back and shout at me when they don't get their way.

They are always worse after school holidays, as they have spent lots more time at home, stamping their feet and getting their way....

Sadly, Bucharest, back-in-our-day there wasn't so much instant gratification in the form of TV, computer, Playstation and so on that seem to have severely reduced (some) kids' attention span on the one hand, and completely removed the need for them to be outside, running around when they're at home. When I've mentioned (never criticized) a child's 'boisterous' behaviour in the classroom to a parent, I usually get a variation on the reply 'but they come to school to let off steam'

I don't think it's linked to socio-economic class either. Dp's brother is a vet, his wife a lady-of-leisure, she was utterly horrified, and quite offended when their 6 yr old daughter was given a book as a birthday present. "A book! I mean, she can't even read yet! (no shit Sherlock) what on earth is she going to do with a book!!!"

Surely the children should have the right to ask teachers questions?
Is that what parents need to do? Ensure we've broken their spirits before they enter school?

I do hope you are NOT including children with SEN here. My son has ASD and ADHD which was NOT diagnosed when he started school - I got the diagnosis finally in Yr2. He couldn't do carpet time for more than 5 mins, (an OT noted that he sat on his knees which is common with children who have proprioception problems) he struggled with turn taking despite lots of practice at home in turn taking games and struggled with most social skills. At times I am sure other parents would have posted here "he has no SN" yet he DID but they had not been diagnosed.
He is now 8 and has made fantastic progress with SN support, Statement, 1-1 learning support assistant and meds for his ADHD even though he has never been a " bouncing off the walls" ADHD child. In the past 9 months he has gone from barely scraping NC level1 in Maths to Level 2a at the end of Yr3 massive massive progress.
Nothing to do with lax parenting sometimes, some of us are anxious and worried about our children's difficulties and don't need other smug parents pointing the finger and judging us just because our child is a fidget who cannot sit still.

In the ansence of SN then of course YNBU to think that children should have a minimum of social skills but it is not always clear cut.

Corsilk - My absolute, honest opinion (put your flame-throwers down, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it ) - school is just a massive baby-sitting service. There, I've said it in 'public'! Countless studies have shown that actual learning takes place when children leave the classroom. I'm not saying that school is redundant - far from it - but the severe disinction home/school, or our concept of what learning is, or even what our children need to learn, has got to be revised.

I have seen children starting school who

cannot dress themselves or use the loo independently
cannot use cutlery other than a spoon for a dinner
don't know more than 3 colours, and aren't 100% sure of those
can't name basic pictures of farm animals such as cow, sheep, pig
don't know basic comparisons like longer/shorter/fatter/thinner
don't know any simple nursery rhymes

makes you wonder what the parents have been doing for 4+ years!

I worked 1:1 with a Y2/3 girl who needed lots of help with numbers and reading - then after every holiday it was back to square one because noone at home had read to or with her and she would forget all her sight words again. Heartbreaking.

I have noticed more children are allowed to interrupt their parents, are given choice about food, always told that their scribbled art work is a masterpiece and are entertained every waking hour. School where they have to be quiet and take turns must be a shock to their system.

I would agree onion, the worst behaved ones in my DD's class (I'm thinking of 2 or 3 who are repeatedly causing trouble) come from well educated parents with good incomes. The mums are SAHP so I really don't think it's a lack of quality time. It's more their attitude. e.g. whereas I teach mine, wait until somethings free, then you can play with it. Another mum will demand somebody gives up a toy for their dc, and loudly berate the child happily playing with it, saying they don't know how to share. It's as though they can't say no to their dc. They have to indulge them. That child now expects people to give up what they're doing at school for him to use and gets really angry and aggressive when they don't.

Good point LIZS. I hadn't considered that my post might imply that (which I didn't intend it to) so thanks for picking it up and giving me the chance to set things straight before I unwittingly contribute to another prejudice about bad parenting and socio-economic class.

I think one of the reasons that the cuts will affect kids from all backgrounds is because so many children's clubs and activities are essentially charities in structure. They rely on subsidies and gift aid etc to function. They rely on being able to hire venues for much reduced rates, or to take advantage of community buildings for free. They often require an army of unpaid volunteers to function. The pressure on all these things is massive at the moment and things are starting to give. We have a local ballet group and a tae-kwon-do group that have failed because they can no longer afford a suitable venue, even with fees for the children. There is a waiting list for organisations to be able to use facilities at our local leisure centre. This sort of thing affect middle class families as well as poorer ones round here.

No I won't flame you Aphrodite. I agree.

In our day, there was also more scope for running off steam during school playtime.

In ds' school, children are only allowed to use playground climbing equipment at one specified time a week (when it is the turn of their group), they are barely allowed to run in the playground and they are kept in whenever the weather is cold/damp/wrong kind of whatever on the ground. They are never allowed to touch leaves or twigs or anything else like that because it is unhygienic.

Parents who let younger siblings use the tiny climbing frame under supervision while waiting to collect their children are instantly told off- it's not safe. (it looks ultra-safe to me)

Perhaps somewhere the school does contain a parent who would sue if little Bobbie stubbed his toe- but I have yet to meet him or her.

In my nephew's school (abroad), life goes on as it did 40 years ago: the pupils can climb trees, they are sent out in all weathers (including heavy snow) and can use equipment freely. Of course they find it easier to sit still during lessons.

Having said this, I still expect my dcs to behave.

TimeWasting - there's a difference between asking the teacher a question and questioning the teacher

and no, the majority of the children i knew did not go on to be dx with any SN, just inadequate parenting

Oh I don't know MightyAphrodite, my son has come on in leaps and bounds for Maths during the last 9 months and it's nowt to do with his number bline mother.

School has done all of that and not me. What I have done is ensure he has the right support so I fought for the Statement of SEN which was thrown out several times by the County Council before his diagnosis, after which they were falling over themselves to get one in place

Maybe given that I have fought for the right support, your analysis makes sense in a roundabout sort of way.

I'm loving this thread, btw

MightyAphrodite, I guess so. Both are necessary though.

pretentiouswasteoftime- so he now has support that suits his needs (well done on fighting for your child BTW) and is learning. The one size fits all environment of schools is damaging for may children I think in spite of excellent teachers. Just let teachers teach in the way they want to.

We are still working on the knife and fork (DS is dyspraxic) but it IS happening albeit slowly. Not helped by my BIL who says "let's teach him right now" . Tempted to reply - "yeah - he can stay here for a week and come back cured"

I really worry about this - people really DO judge and I get fed up with explaining.

many children

I am fortunate in the school and the teaching staff there who are brilliant corsilk. Am in the middle of composing a massive letter telling them so.