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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

At what age does an innocent boy that needs protecting from a big scary man, become a big scary man?

321 replies

needanewname · 10/06/2011 10:48

Discuss.

OP posts:
sunshineandbooks · 10/06/2011 16:09

OK, I"ll admit to getting a little Confused with all the cross posts here so I'm going to move on to another point.

Who is labelling men dangerous and predatory? That's an important question to answer in this debate isn't it?

Where has the notion that men are dangerous and predatory come from?

You can't blame feminism for that because it's not feminists who have mass control over the media in all its forms that keep telling us about all these cases of rapes, child abuse, paedophilia, etc.

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 16:09

Society does not make men dangerous and predatory.....ffs, look at rape stats before spouting such crap.

OTheHugeManatee · 10/06/2011 16:10

I can't remember if it was on this thread or the other, but I think it's very interesting how peedo manfear is at root an aggressive drive for social conservatism. Essentially

it's saying that men can't be trusted around small children. Ergo only women are considered 'safe' as carers for children, ergo men are excluded from involvement with children. So then men like MIFLAW and other examples we've heard feel they're viewed with suspicion if interacting with children, and many will back away from childcare. And how on earth are we supposed to insist that it's a good and valuable thing for parenting to be a shared responsibility if we're also saying that men should keep their distance from children?

IMO it's a reaction to the gradual blurring of gender roles in our postindustrial society. There are fewer 'male' jobs around, an increase in the number of more 'genderless' information worker type jobs, a slow but steady increase in the number of SAHDs and a concurrent softening of any kind of solid basis for stereotypes around 'male' and 'female' behaviour.

I reckon you could argue that peedomanfear is a related phenomenon to pornification. Pornification is IMO at least partly a reactionary backlash against women's increasing economic power in the workforce. As in, 'ok then dear, go earn a salary, but don't forget to wreck your back with 4in heels and hack your body around with toxins and plastic implants, you're still here for men's delectation and don't you forget it'. So women feel inadequate, female self-esteem takes a hit, women are on the back foot even as they're getting ahead in the workplace, the gender divide is maintained, all is peaceful.

Peedomanfear is an equally reactionary backlash against the gradual change in social expectations around men, towards a softer, more caring attitude - whether that's male nursery workers, SAHDs, the expectation that men should be willing and able to express feelings etc. What's implied by peedomanfear is that any man who shows caring behaviour towards a child should be under suspicion of being sick and perverted. The consequences are, again, reactionary - men back away, into the more old-fashioned 'distant' male stereotype. The gender divide is restored, all is peaceful.

Unless you believe in gender equality, that is. If you do, then it's clear that it's just as important to fight for men's right to traditionally 'female' attributes as it is to fight for women's right to traditionally 'male' ones. It's in everyone's interests to do that. Until it's ok for men to take and be trusted in 'caring' roles traditionally thought of as female, the business of caring will always, in the end, fall to women.

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 16:11

I am pretty aghast that in order to justify his argument MIFLAW now is trying to say that the reason we think men abuse more than women is that more men have been caught.

MrSpoc · 10/06/2011 16:12

Oh come on really. Men are all prone to indulge in their sexual urges and cannot help themselves. (Do you really belive this crap you have just spouted).

Men & women all have sexual urges but due to evolution and society as a whole both sexes have learnt to manage their crazy urges. (News flash only a small percentage of people cannot).

Also the report about female abusers takes into account that society finds it hard to belive that Famales are capable of this evil act and so it goes unnoticed. Until recently when the media has brought to light the two women (vanesa george and the other women involed) and also another women last year in a nursery.

Also as i said before. what about all the news reports of female teachers seducing 14 - 15 year old boys (there are a couple every year). is it ok because they are tenage boys gagging for sex.??????

sunshineandbooks · 10/06/2011 16:13

Good post Manatee

Nuttychic · 10/06/2011 16:13

Quoted from CrapolaDeVille MIFLAW...it's not really for you to understand is it?

Who is it for then Crap? As it doesnt seem men or woman are agreeing with you.

Quoted from CrapolaDeVille Society does not make men dangerous and predatory.....ffs, look at rape stats before spouting such crap.

MEN are not rapists Crap, rapists are. Men does NOT equal rapists.

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/06/2011 16:13

Sunshine, I'm not sure anything other than some people's personal beliefs is being explored very well on this particular thread. All well and good and that, but I can't help but think that this could be so much more. Like a discussion on the real issues that effect everyone, what is really wrong and what can be done to make things better.

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 16:15

I bet more women have been sexually assaulted than men viewed with suspicion around children. #justsaying

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 16:17

Nutty. It is pretty dull having to correct you. Someone else said that society thinks men are dangerous and p[redatory, I think that's rubbish as rape stats are so low. If we believed men were predatory and dangerous wouldn't more be convicted for the rapes they are accused of?

Primalscream · 10/06/2011 16:17

You said something about drink driving and how that used to be acceptable - You can't compare human nature with issues like that because there's no comparison. It's great that men can work in nurseries ( was there ever a time when they couldn't? ) but just because a certain profession becomes more male friendlly it doesn't mean all cases of child abuse will disappear.
You seemed to suggest that by making something acceptable nothing bad will happen. It doesn't work like that. And people still drink and drive.

Nuttychic · 10/06/2011 16:20

Crap I am so pleased I dont mix in your type of circles. Can I safely assume you dont have any sons?

Primalscream · 10/06/2011 16:20

Sorry that was to Needanewname

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 16:21

"I am pretty aghast that in order to justify his argument MIFLAW now is trying to say that the reason we think men abuse more than women is that more men have been caught."

Why are you "aghast"? You LOVE stats, "letting the facts speak for themselves", etc - well, isn't it a fact that we tend to assume that paedophiles will be men and therefore find more male paedophiles and therfore convict more and therefore ...?

In fact, that is EXACTLY the reason we "think" more men abuse than women. We will not actually know the facts (and, therefore, protecting the maximium number of children) until we start taking a balanced view of the subject and investigating on the basis of rational suspicion rather than on feelings in our water.

I bet 90 people in a hundred have never even knowingly MET a paedophile, let alone been threatened or harmed by one; yet, to be on the safe side, there are people here who want to take a default position that ALL men are inherently untrustworthy.

PLEASE can someone explain to me how that is rational?

CrapolaDeVille · 10/06/2011 16:22

Nutty....What exactly do you object to? It's a little difficult to tell as you're a bit cloudy.

I have three beautiful sons, thanks.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 16:25

Keep them away from my daughters, please!

Them and their foul, predatory, raping cocks.

BooyHoo · 10/06/2011 16:33

crapola do you have any idea of how low the rape conviction rate is in comparison the actual incidents of rape?

needanewname · 10/06/2011 16:33

Crapola and primal, let's for one minute agree to disagree but answer me this, at what age do innocent boys stop needed to be protected from these men and become one? It's a simple question.

OP posts:
Nuttychic · 10/06/2011 16:34

Agreed Miflaw and my sons!

Crap, its just you who doesnt get what I object to so I wont take it personally, Im not surprised really.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 16:35

I don't know how old your three beautiful sons are, Crapola - but, when they are old enough, how do you plan to explain to them that, though you might not believe it yourself, you are comfortable with the fact that some people assume they are potential child abusers, even without having met them and that, should any of them give you granddaughters, he should probably not change their nappies because, statistically, he is prone to abuse them and people will talk - and that, rather than stand up for your own sons, you plan to be an apologist for their faceless accusers?

sunshineandbooks · 10/06/2011 16:39

Who is saying that ALL men are inherently untrustworthy?

I'm not saying that. I've been at pains to make that clear.

But the idea that men are violent and therefore cannot be trusted around childre comes in part from figures showing that more men abuse children than women, and no I do not believe that the under-reporting can account for all of the gap as it's simply too large (though I've no doubt that a 'hunt' truly free from gender-bias may narrow the gap). It's silly to deny it and I can't let it go unchallenged.

Personally I don't want to discuss the stats about abuse for the reasons Manatee gave above and because, as MIFLAW points out, MOST PEOPLE (of either sex) ARE NOT ABUSERS. I think these sorts of questions take the focus off the real issues - which is sod the statistics, what can we do to increase the status of childcare and to get more men involved in it?

needanewname · 10/06/2011 16:43

Sunshine that is what has been implied by people saying that they don't want a man to take their child to the loo. When questioned they have bought statistics into saying that more men abuse than women so therefore I don't want that man near my child in the loo

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 10/06/2011 16:45

I would say that they stop being an innocent boy and become the predatory man at the age when a mother wouldn't want them alone with a 3 yr old DD-which is depressingly young.
I would imagine it is the type of mother who would insist her 9yr old DS gets changed in the ladies changing room at the swimming pool because she fears sending him into the mens- but would then feel it was 'creepy' if an 11yr old DS was watching her and her 3 yr old DD get undressed in a changing room.
They are most definitely one by 16yrs, if they can't babysit when the mother would accept a 16yr old babysitter.

MIFLAW · 10/06/2011 16:46

"But the idea that men are violent and therefore cannot be trusted around childre" - at the risk of splitting hairs, I don't think that the drivers for sexual abuse of children are AT ALL the same as those for physical abuse of children - and it is my understanding that it is very much sexual abuse that we are discussing.

Men may well be more violent than women, even towards children, and that is abhorrent - but it should not be used in assessing men's propensity to sexually abuse children, surely?

exoticfruits · 10/06/2011 16:47

Sorry-I missed out 16yr old DD babysitter