At what age does an innocent boy that needs protecting from a big scary man, become a big scary man?

[needanewname]

Discuss.

It was once accepted that driving after having a couple drinks was fine. It was once accepted that beating your wife was I'm, as ling ad the stick wax no thicker than your thumb. It wad once accepted that girls didn't need an education. Quite tightly tear have all been challenged, I and others are challenging the views that men working in the childcare industry are all pedophiles just waiting for the right opportunity.

needanewname I get where you're coming from, I really do, and I cannot repeat often enough on here that I want to see more men in childcare, I want to see more paternity rights awarded to men too. However, I would challenge the assertion that we have tackled and won the inequality facing women. We most emphatically have not, despite improvements.

You mentioned earlier about the change in car insurance. It would be a lot less about this if men and women were on an otherwise level playing field but they are not. Men STILL have significantly more advantages than women in this society (as well as some disadvantages like the one we are discussing here). Unless you accept that men are cleverer than women, why are nearly all CEOs male, why are all the top, highly-paid professions dominated by men, why do we still have a gender pay gap, why do we still have 1 in 4 women abused by their partners, why do we still have 3 in 5 absent fathers not paying for their children? And yet the correct response is not to improve women's rights, it seems, it's to remove one of the few areas where they have enjoyed an advantage because as a group they are safer drivers than men. Yep, that's fair alright!

I hope it's understood that I am not saying that men are perverts just the thinking behind this.

Seems to me people are more likely to defend a man getting a hard time in childcare than the countless women who are overlooked....poor poor men in this big old patriarchy.

"I was offering a reason as to why SOME people may have an issue with it."

I understand that.

And I am offering an opinion that, whoever has an issue with it and for any of the reasons stated so far, it's a load of old cobblers.

sunshine....I completely agree and x posts!!

It is as irrational to fear men in care roles as it is to fear black people in care roles. So this should be challenged. So should any idea that we have that we can prevent all abuse. We can't.

I also disagree with this. There is no statistical link between skin colour and the incidence of abuse of children. There is, however, a strong link between gender and abuse of children. Decent men, like MIFLAW and many other men I know (including one of my DC's carers), are unfortunately suffering because of the actions of men as a group (which in no way implies that they are ALL like that)

That's not to say I consider all men to be potential child abusers because I don't.

"Men are, I'm afraid, a victim of their own doing."

PURE shite.

Why is France - to take an example I am familiar with - much less paranoid about the "threat" to children of ordinary men going about their business? France is MUCH more macho and patriarchial than the UK and yet a man speaking to, smiling with or interacting with a child he did not know, in public, would not automatically be seen as a paedophiliac attack.

Now why is that? Are the French just less interested in fucking kids than us Brits? Are there fewer paedophiles, do you think? Perhaps it's just, with more TV channels, there is more to do in the evening than rape your own offspring and those of strangers?

Or could it be, perhaps, oh, just perhaps, that we as a society are paranoid about paedophilia, because of several well-publicised cases that have captured the imagination (as far back as Brady and Hindley) and that, as a result, far from analysing risk sensibly and rationally, we are happy to punish men for being men by treating them all as potential deviants and criminals until they can PROVE different?

Perhaps French feminism is a little behind or perhaps childcare isn;t considered 'women's work'.

Where's that brick wall?!

"are unfortunately suffering because of the actions of men as a group (which in no way implies that they are ALL like that)" - I am not suffering because of the actions of MEN as a group. I am suffering as a result of the actions of nutjobs as a group who cannot assess risk or come up with sensible strategies to avoid it.

Some men abuse kids. So do some women. These people are, quite literally, criminally insane and it is wrong to generalise based on this sample. You might as well judge all men's propensity to violence on the basis of the Kray twins.

See MIFLAW....you mention Hindly and Brady, Rose and Fred. But I struggle to think of one case that didn't have the involvement of a man when it comes to big cases. Every woman seems to have been encouraged by a man.

CrapolaDeVille Men are, I'm afraid, a victim of their own doing.

Really? Ok I will be sure to tell that to my INNOCENT sons.

Perhaps you need to put the word black, Jewish hell even German where the word Men is and see how sick you are! Sexism, racism, etc are all as sick as eachother.

But MIFLAW.... we as a society persecute and stifle women's opportunities on a regular basis, this is one of the FEW where men suffer prejudice.

"Perhaps French feminism is a little behind or perhaps childcare isn;t considered 'women's work'." Childcare is EVERYWHERE considered women's work, even in the most feminist societies on earth there is still a long way to go on that score.

Perhaps, more logically, it is because the French do not assume that someone's gender alone makes them a likely example of criminal insanity.

Nutty...Honestly. This is a discussion in which we are attempting to unpick the prejudice, not where people are being fucking prejudice.

MIFLAW, I do think that's a very good point you raise about the press actually.

I read somewhere (sorry don't ask me to remember where) that incidents of paedophilia are no higher now than they were 50 years ago yet the level of public concern about it has rocketed off the scale. That has to be due to sensationalist reporting, surely? It also has another interesting connotation that is indirectly relevant to this thread because it ties in with how much we try to protect our children. One of the reasons so few children play out now is due to the perceived risk of being snatched by a pervert, yet this is no bigger a risk now than it was 30 years ago when everyones kids were playing out.

Add message | Report | Message poster CrapolaDeVille Fri 10-Jun-11 15:35:46
But MIFLAW.... we as a society persecute and stifle women's opportunities on a regular basis, this is one of the FEW where men suffer prejudice.

Oh well that's ok then

"But MIFLAW.... we as a society persecute and stifle women's opportunities on a regular basis, this is one of the FEW where men suffer prejudice."

Well, that's fine then, I take it all back.

Oh, no, hang on, I don't, because WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND IN WHAT WAY IS IT RELEVANT TO THIS?

Even if that were true (and relevant), what about the children - of both genders - who will suffer as a result of horribly distorted relationships with the adults around them? You're such a big fan of statistics, do the math on that one!

Ah miflaw you said it so much better than I could have :)

But someone's gender DOES affect the statistical probability of that person in committing violent crime. That's a well documented fact.

There are as many female criminals as male ones but when it comes to violent, abusive crimes, the number of men far, far exceed women.

That does NOT suggest all men are violent anymore than it suggests that all women are not.

I'm saying that if work were more equal in general, on a gender basis, then childcare wouldn't be seen as women's work and would be more welcoming to men. Until the paygap is bridged women are far more likely to do most of the young child childcare. It is entirely relevant.

Sunshine I agree that the media have had a massive impact on peoples fears and prejudices. 50 years ago we wouldn't necessarily even have known about cases of abuse in other parts of the country whereas now we hear about it on a worldwide scale.same goes to your point about kids being snatched while playing out.

"See MIFLAW....you mention Hindly and Brady, Rose and Fred. But I struggle to think of one case that didn't have the involvement of a man when it comes to big cases. Every woman seems to have been encouraged by a man." Of course, because the man must have instigated it, right? Little wifey Myra, tagging along behind big bad Ian, eh?

I don't even understand what Rose and Fred, who murdered adults, I believe, have to do with this.

But, again, these people are not normal - serial killers and rapists tend not to be. So why would you use them as the basis of assumptions about others who share their gender?

THIS. IS. NOT. RATIONAL. OR. SANE.

Once again well said miflaw

women are advantaged in childcare / caring professions are they? Now you really are talking bollocks.

Women are underpaid in those professions and in nursing where men are under- represented, men are over represented in senior roles.

If more men were in those roles it would at least have the effect of the role being seen as a high status and command more pay.

More men are needed in these roles not less.

No I'm not, stop being so obtuse.

Nest you'll be saying that women should be suspected of rape as much as men and all those female Priests?!!